Laurel Letter of Pends and Discussion (LoPaD): February 28, 2005

Society for Creative Anachronism

College of Arms

15910 Val Verde Dr.

Houston, TX 77083-4921

+1-281-277-4055

herald@sca.org

For the September 2004 meetings, printed February 28, 2005

To all the College of Arms and all others who may read this missive, from François Laurel King of Arms, Evan Wreath, and Margaret Pelican, greetings.

This letter contains the issues raised in the September 2004 LoAR for CoA discussion. The text in this letter is copied verbatim from that LoAR; it is provided here for convenience. As with a February LoI, these matters are currently scheduled for the Laurel meetings in June 2005. Original commentary must be in the College's hands no later than April 30, 2005. Responses and rebuttals to commentary must be in the College's hands no later than May 31, 2004.

1. John Lindsay. Name.

This name conflicts with John Vliet Lindsay who, according to Britannican Online:

...in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1959 to 1965 and as mayor of New York City from 1966 to 1973, first as a Republican but from 1971 as a Democrat; in 1972 he was a candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination. Faced with the turbulence of civil-rights and antiwar demonstrations during his terms as mayor, he defused much of the tension by appearing in the streets and talking with the people.

He has his own entry in the Encylopedia Britannica and is found in many general biographical sources. Under the old rules, this would be a conflict. However, under the current rules, mundane conflict must be decided on a case-by-case basis. Only Metron Ariston mentioned this conflict, and there was no response. This may be because the name is not recognized by most of the commenters, or it may be that they believe it is a conflict. More information is needed to determine this. As the heart of mundane conflict is "does this name make a significant portion of SCA participants think of the mundane person", we're pending this for further discussion. Commenters -- is John Vliet Lindsay important enough to protect?

2. Klaus Rother von Schweinichen. Joint badge with Thaddeus von Orlam{u"}nde for Der Gesellschaft mit der Mondsichel. (Fieldless) A helm sable, torsed bendy Or and sable, mantled and crested of a crescent Or.

This is being pended to May 2005 for several reasons, which are individually discussed below.

The badge was, in fact, submitted as a joint household badge; these facts were omitted from the LoI. A Letter of Correction with this information has been promised for January 2005. The College should address the question of whether the combination of household name and this armory is presumptuous (which would violate RfS XI.2).

The tincture of the mantling and crescent was omitted from the LoI blazon. As drawn, the crescent/torse/mantling are maintained charges and not worth difference. No conflict was found with (field) a helm sable.

The submitter provided evidence which purportedly supported the idea of a badge consisting of a helm crested with something. However, the textual description of the armory, also supplied by the submitter, suggests that the helm is not actually part of the badge. This evidence does not provide sufficient support to overturn the precedent that this depiction consitutes a crest.

However, some research at the meeting showed that Siebmacher has some instances of stuff issuant from coronets, for example: a monk in f.67, von Aldenberg; a stag's head in f.69, die Grimben; a swan in f.86, von Schoenbuehl. Others are likely to be found in Siebmacher. Given this evidence, we are sending this back to the College for further research on whether helms or other headgear, OTHER than crowns/coronets, appear as charges in period armory (not as part of a suit of armor) with things issuant from or atop them in a crest-like manner.

3. Lulach Cauldwell. Device. Azure, in bend sinister three sinister hands argent.

This is clear of Aisling ní Fhlaithbheartaigh: Azure, a heart, a sinister hand couped apaumé bendwise sinister and a dexter hand couped apaumé bendwise, one and two, argent. There is one CD for arrangement of the charges, and another CD for orientation of the hands (more than half of the charge group) since none of Aisling's hands are in the same orientation as any of Lulach's.

However, this may conflict with Graham of the Bright Hills: Per fess azure and barry argent and azure, in chief a thistle Or between a pair of clenched gauntlets argent. There is one CD for changes to the field. There is no CD for type or tincture of one out of three charges in an arrangement other than "two and one". There is not a CD for arrangement since Graham's field does not allow his charges to be arranged in bend sinister. There may be a CD for posture between hands apaumy and gauntlets clenched. The applicable precedent is deliberately ambiguous:

Single CD for arrangement. No CD for the type of one of three charges in an arrangement other than two and one. There was also a question about whether a hand should be given a CD for posture versus a hand in benediction. Current precedent regarding gauntlets would imply that this is not so:

[a dexter gauntlet clenched apaumy vs a dexter gauntlet appaumy] The clenching is an artistic detail which does not contribute difference. (William MacGregor, May 1998 p. 22)

However, it is important to remember that gauntlets are often 'mitten gauntlets' and what is true for a gauntlet may not always be true for a hand. We encourage the College to research this issue. [Ihon Vinson MacFergus, 09/01, A-Ansteorra]

A visual inspection of Graham's armory shows that the three charges in chief are all the same size, so they form a single primary charge group. Graham's "gauntlets" have separately articulated fingers, so they appear to be hands with the fingers folded down and showing in front.

This is being pended for further research on whether there should be a CD between a "glove" style gauntlet clenched (with the fingers showing) and a hand apaumy.

4. Stonemarche, Barony of. Badge (for the Company of Gesters) (see RETURNS for Order name Company of Gesters). Argent, a double lion's tail couped azure.

The tincture of the lion's tail was omitted from the LoI. This is pended to allow for conflict checking under the correct blazon.

Pray know that I remain

In service

François la Flamme

Laurel Principal King of Arms