Laurel Letter of Pends and Discussion: May 21, 2002

                                         Society for Creative Anachronism
                                         College of Arms
                                         15910 Val Verde Drive
                                         Houston TX, 77083-4921
                                         713-918-2947
                                         herald&#064sca.org
                           For the March 2002 meetings, printed May 21, 2002


To all the College of Arms and to all others to whom this missive
comes, from Fran{c,}ois Laurel, Zenobia Wreath, and Mari Pelican,
health and good friendship.

This letter contains the issues raised in the May 2002 LoAR for CoA
discussion. The text in this letter is copied verbatim from that LoAR;
it is provided here for convenience.

A REQUEST, PLEASE: It would help our processing somewhat if you
comment on Laurel issues and pends using the LoPaD as if it were an
LoI (instead of including Laurel comments without a header or
number). If it's not inconvenient, please use the date on the LoPaD as
an "LoI date", use the numbers provided on each item, and give the
name as spelled on the LoPaD, exactly as you would for a new LoI (and
without reference to the item's original kingdom, original date, or
original number). For this letter, your comments might look like

	Laurel LoPaD of May 21, 2002

	1. Andre la Flamme. [Your knowledgable and well-reasoned
           commentary goes here.]

	2. Torcall mac Grigair. [More commentary here.]

or however you usually format your commentary. If you don't provide
the header, item number, and exact name, we just have to look them up
and insert or change them.

As with an May LoI, these issues are currently scheduled for the
Laurel meetings in September 2002. Original commentary must be in the
College's hands no later than July 31, 2002. Responses and rebuttals
to commentary must be in the College's hands no later than August 28,
2002.

1. Andre la Flamme. Device. Per chevron Or and chevronelly gules and
   Or, a flame gules within a bordure azure.

    The bordure azure was not mentioned in the Letter of Intent. This
    must therefore be pended for further research.

    (This item was originally item 1 on Atlantia's LoI of November 16,
    2001.)

2. Torcall mac Grigair. Device. Erminois, on a pile vert a crane in
   its vigilance argent beaked and legged gules.

    The crane was blazoned as proper in the letter of intent. This
    must be pended for further conflict research.

    (This item was originally item 13 on Drachenwald's LoI of November
    16, 2001.)

3. Wulfgar Neumann. Device. Gyronny sable and argent, a bordure
   counterchanged.

    Bordures may be counterchanged over a gyronny field. We have many
    period examples of bordures compony, which are almost the same in
    appearance as bordures gyronny. Because the bordure counterchanged
    has large enough pieces to maintain its identifiability, and it
    looks like a common multiply divided period bordure, it may be
    accepted without explicit documentation of a bordure
    counterchanged on a gyronny field.

    The SCA currently protects the Campbell quarter of the modern
    Scottish arms of Campbell of Argyll, Gyronny Or and sable. An
    earlier form of these arms is Gyronny argent and sable, and we
    have been asked to consider whether this form should be protected
    by the SCA. The Gyronny argent and sable version of the Campbell
    arms is found in David Lindsay of the Mount's 1542 roll and the
    15th C Scots Roll, as well as a 1601 portrait of Duncan Campbell
    of Glenorchy (a cousin of the Earl of Argyll) as seen in McKean,
    The Scottish Chateau: The Country House of Renaissance Scotland,
    plate 13 and pp. 137 - 138. Thistle Stall Plates, by Charles
    Burnett (Ross Herald) and Leslie Hodgson, p. 22, also mentions the
    Lindsay form using argent and sable, and states that "Pont's
    Manuscript (c. 1624) is apparently the first appearance of the
    quartered shield as used today". The illustration of the modern
    form in Thistle Stall Plates shows the modern form curently
    protected in the SCA.

    If the older form of the Campbell arms is important enough to
    protect in the SCA, then Wulfgar's arms conflict. There is one CD
    for adding the bordure but no difference by RfS X.4.a for
    reversing the order of tinctures on a gyronny field. This
    submission must therefore be pended for consideration of whether
    the argent and sable version of the Campbell arms should be
    protected.

    (This item was originally item 14 on the Outland's LoI of November
    17, 2001.)

Pray know that I remain

In service

Fran{c,}ois la Flamme

Laurel Principal King of Arms