Laurel Letter of Pends and Discussion (LoPaD): December 6, 2005

Society for Creative Anachronism
College of Arms

16308 SE 165th St
Renton, WA 98058-8221

For the September 2005 meetings, printed December 6, 2005

To all the College of Arms and all others who may read this missive, from Elisabeth Laurel, Jeanne Marie Wreath, and Margaret Pelican, greetings.

This letter contains the issues raised in the September 2005 LoAR for CoA discussion. The text in this letter is copied verbatim from that LoAR; it is provided here for convenience. As with a December 2005 LoI, these matters are currently scheduled for the Pelican and Wreath meetings in April 2006. Original commentary must be in the College's hands no later than February 28, 2006. Responses and rebuttals to commentary must be in the College's hands no later than March 31, 2006.

  1. Agnes de Tynegate. Name.

    When changes are made to names in kingdom, the original spelling and the reasons for the change must be stated on the LoI. This is important to help the commenters address the submitter's desires. The name was originally submitted as Agnes of Tyne; it was changed to the form Agnes de Tynegate in kingdom although there was no information in the LoI discussing this change nor was the spelling updated on the form. Furthermore, the submitter indicated a desire for a name authentic for 12th-14th C Northern England which was not mentioned on the LoI or addressed by the submitters. Summarization of the checkboxes is also required on an LoI. Because the LoI lacked this required information, we are pending this submission to give the commenters time to better evaluate it given full information about the submission.

    Here's the summary of this name, from the Middle letter of May 25, 2005:

    [Agnes] -- "Feminine Given Names in 'A Dictionary of English Surnames'" by Talan Gwynek, [Agnes] c. 1153, 1160

    [Tynegate] recorded in Cumberland in 1332 (Reaney & Wilson s.n. <Tinegate>)

    The English preposition <of> is much less likely than <de> in a documentary form with a Latinized forename, but it's not completely out of the question, so <de> could be replaced by <of>.

    In the original submission, Tyne was documented as a the name of a river from a medieval map of England found at The maps on this site are from Shepherd, William R. Historical Atlas, (New York: Barnes and Noble, 1929) , so while the locations noted on them are probably of the appropriate period, the spellings are modern.

    Her device was registered under the holding name Agnes of Cynnabar.

    This was item 1 on the Middle letter of May 26, 2005.

  2. Freydis Orkneyska. Device. Argent, on a pile inverted throughout between two ravens addorsed sable a pegasus segreant argent.

    This is pended to allow the College to conflict check under the correct tinctures. Blazoned on the LoI as Per chevron throughout Or and sable, two ravens addorsed and a pegasus segreant counterchanged, the field and the pegasus are argent not Or. Given the relative sizes of the charges, this is more accurately blazoned as a pile inverted. This is clear of Brann Morgan Dunmore Argent, upon a pile inverted throughout, between two ravens sable, a tower argent with a CD for changing the orientation of half the secondaries and another for changing the type of tertiary per X.4.j.ii.

    This was item 3 on the Drachenwald letter of May 26, 2005.

  3. Gelre. Important non-SCA arms. Azure, a lion rampant queue-forchy Or.

    In commenting on the submission for Caesaria Beribroun (from the An Tir Letter of Intent), Nebuly argued that the arms of the Counts of Gelre should be protected. Normally Caesaria's submission would have been pended to allow for this discussion; however, it was returned for other conflicts. Nebuly's arguments for protecting the Gelre arms are included below and on the Letter of Pends and Discussion (LoPaD). The pictures included in Nebuly's LoC are not included below.

    ...conflict with the arms of the Counts of Gelre: Azure, a lion rampant queue-forchy Or, which I feel should be protected. Note that we already protect the heraldic title Gelre because of the famous 14th century armorial produced by the herald Claes Heinenzoon, who held that title. In his self-portrait (shown below, left) he wears a cape of the Gelre arms. These arms are today marshalled in the arms of the Duchy of Gelderland (shown below, right), with the arms of Gelre to dexter and the arms of Gulik to sinister. These two duchies united in 1371 to form the combined Duchy of Gelderland. [Flags (Eyewitness series)]

    The earliest arms used by a Counts of Gelre were: Or, three cinquefoils gules, but these arms do not seem to have persisted beyond the 12th century Gelre, as an independent county under Otto II in the 13th century, used the arms: Azure billety, a lion rampant Or, which are the arms upon which the modern arms of the Kingdom of the Netherlands are based.

    In 1339, the counts of Gelre were elevated to the status of dukes. At that time, the billets were removed, the tail doubled, and a crown added. [] In the late 14th century, Maria (a descendant of Otto II via the complicated royal genealogies common in Europe at the time) became both duchess of Gelre and countess of Gulik (now located in Germany). [de Vries, Hubert. Wapens van de Nederlanden (Amsterdam: Jan Mets, 1995)] It is with the Duchess Maria, that the arms of the two regions came to be impaled for the first time, as in her seal (though the lions are not combattant in this seal, but instead both faced to dexter!). Her heirs would come to rule a combined region known as Gelderland. Both of these two component arms appear in the Gelre Armorial separately; Gulik (p.87, item 1127) and Gelre (p.88 vº, item 1169). [Gelre - Bibliothèque Royale Albert Ier. Gelre (Leuven: Jan van Helmont, facsimile edition, 1992)] It was apparently not settled yet that the two regions would be permanently united.

    The arms of the Counts of Gelre are most familiar to heralds because of their prominent appearance in the Gelre Armorial. The Gelre arms are worn as a cape in the self-portrait of the compiling herald Claes Heinenzoon, and this portrait is reproduced in countless books of heraldry (e.g. Neubecker p.11).

    Thus we have two strong reasons to protect the arms of the Counts of Gelre. First, there is the historical importance of these arms as the inspiration for the national arms of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, a set of national arms that we already protect. Second, the arms are well-known in heraldic circles because they have been reproduced often in books on heraldry. Because of the historical importance and familiarity of the arms, and because of their critical importance and prominence in the well-known Gelre Armorial, I feel that the real-world arms of the Counts of Gelre: Azure, a lion rampant queue-forchy Or should be protected.

    This item was on the Cover Letter for the September 2005 LoAR.

  4. Illiton, Barony of. Badge. (Fieldless) Two tridents in saltire and overall a tower sable.

    This is pended to allow commenters to conflict check with the correct tinctures. Blazoned on the LoI as a grey granite tower proper, the emblazon shows a dark gray tower, which is equivalent to sable, not argent. The amount of overlap between the tridents and the castle is not sufficient to obscure the identity of either and is thus registerable.

    Despite laying on the argent field, the grey granite tower proper on the barony's device, Azure, on a pale argent a mermaid erect affronty proper, scaled Or, crined vert maintaining in her right hand a trident bendwise sinister and in her left and upraised hand a grey granite tower proper, and in base a laurel wreath vert, is equivalent to argent, not sable.

    This was item 8 on the Middle letter of May 26, 2005.

  5. Padrig Saethydd. Device. Quarterly sable and azure, a sun Or and in chief three increscents argent.

    This is pended to allow the College to conflict check under the correct tinctures. Blazoned on the LoI as Quarterly sable and azure, an estoile of eight rays and in chief three increscents argent the primary charge is Or not argent. This is pended to allow the commenters to conflict check under the correct tinctures. The primary charge has a large central disk, making it a sun rather than an estoile.

    This was item 28 on the East letter of May 26, 2005.

Pray know that I remain,

In service,

Elisabeth de Rossignol
Laurel Principal Queen of Arms

Created at 2005-12-15T00:49:48