Laurel Letter of Pends and Discussion (LoPaD): November 13, 2006

Society for Creative Anachronism
College of Arms

16308 SE 165th St
Renton, WA 98058-8221

For the August 2006 meetings, printed November 13, 2006

To all the College of Arms and all others who may read this missive, from Elisabeth Laurel, Jeanne Marie Wreath, and Margaret Pelican, greetings.

This letter contains the issues raised in the August 2006 LoAR for CoA discussion. The text in this letter is copied verbatim from that LoAR; it is provided here for convenience. As with a November 2006 LoI, these matters are currently scheduled for the Pelican and Wreath meetings in March 2006. Original commentary must be in the College's hands no later than January 31, 2006. Responses and rebuttals to commentary must be in the College's hands no later than February 28, 2006.

  1. Cassia bint Abdullah. Device. Gules, in pale a lotus flower affronty and a chevron inverted argent.

    Blazoned on the LoI as a chevron and in chief a lotus blossom, making the charges a primary and secondary charge, the charges are clearly co-primary. This is pended to allow conflict checking with co-primaries.

    This was item 3 on the Outlands letter of April 27, 2006.

  2. Eleanor de Montfort of Atlantia. Device. Per bend argent and vert, in cross a roundel between four crescents, horns outwards, all counterchanged.

    Blazoned on the LoI as Per bend argent and vert, a roundel between four crescents in cross, horns outwards, all counterchanged, the charges are co-primary. This is pended to allow checking as five co-primaries rather than a primary and four secondaries.

    This was item 7 on the Atlantia letter of April 20, 2006.

  3. Erec von Rosenfels. Device. Per bend sinister vert and argent, a tower between three cinquefoils counterchanged.

    Blazoned on the LoI as Per bend sinister argent and vert, a tower between three cinquefoils counterchanged, the device is actually Per bend sinister vert and argent, a tower between three cinquefoils counterchanged. This is pended to allow conflict checking under the correct tinctures.

    This was item 3 on the Drachenwald letter of April 19, 2006.

  4. Nuala inghean Diarmada. Device. Vert, two horses salient addorsed within an orle argent.

    The LoI omitted the tincture of the orle; it is argent. This is pended to allow conflict checking with the correct tinctures.

    This was item 9 on the Middle letter of April 25, 2006.

  5. Victor Ispan. Device. Azure, a raven sable perched atop a trimount vert and in chief two mullets argent.

    The LoI noted that the documentation was available at a certain website but failed to summarize that documentation. It appears that while some commenters did view the documentation, notably those using OSCAR, most commenters did not. We are pending this to allow all members of the CoA a chance to review the documentation. We are taking this unusual step so that others who wish to claim a regional style exception under RfS VIII.6.b can see the type of documentation that is required.

    Many commenters noted that this should be returned for lack of identifiability of the raven (due to poor contrast) and for violating RfS VIII.2.b - Contrast Requirements. While we sympathize with those commenters, this motif is being submitted under RfS VIII.6.b - Documented Exceptions - Regional Style. When supported by documentation, the regional style exception allows the registration of motifs that would otherwise violate our rules.

    The following is documentation that Victor Ispan's device submission, Azure, a raven sable perched on a trimount vert and in chief two mullets argent, uses design elements and styles compatible with period Hungarian heraldry. Evidence is presented for the use of complex dark or sable charges on azure fields; for green trimounts, mounts, or bases with azure fields, some with dark or sable charges standing on them; for light-colored peripheral stars, often accompanying otherwise low-contrast designs; and for the use of all three design elements together (see plate L Kállay Vitéz, plate LXIX Hohenperger, and illustration 63 Hartha).

    All of the documentation is from Nyulásziné Straub Éva's Öt évszázad címerei (Babits kiadó, Szekszárd, 1999). In this book, an archivist at the Hungarian National Archives collected almost all the authenticated Hungarian (i.e., issued by a Hungarian monarch) letters patent kept in the archives. ("Almost all" because if the emblazon was missing, it was not re-created, and arms awarded to non-Hungarians who never settled in Hungary were omitted.) Out of the over 1300 coats of arms presented, 283 come from letters dated before the 17th century. Of these, 77 are from the 15th century, and 206 are from the 16th.

    The book begins with a set of color plates reproducing the original emblazons; 70 of these date from SCA period. The other 213 period coats appear in chronological order as black-and-white illustrations with heraldic hatchments. The book also gives a description (Hungarian doesn't do "Blazon") for each color plate; these are given below in English translation (with translator's notes in square brackets). For the illustrations, a blazon is attempted below, but please check the picture.

    The pictures from this book can be found online, on the website of the National Archives at (look for "A Magyar Országos Levéltár címereslevelei" in the left-hand frame). The numbers given below are the plate or illustration numbers from the book, followed by the hexadecimal number (in parentheses) which can be plugged in at the end of the following URL to take you straight to a no-frames version of just the page in question.

    (For example, is Plate XIV, Paczali Peres.)

    Black complex things on blue (17 examples):

    Green trimounts on blue (11 examples):

    Green bases or mounts on blue (25 examples in addition to those above): plates XXXVI Gersei Peth{o"} (28; more visible in the illustration at e5), XL Radák (2c), XLIX Bicskey (35), LVII Szentgyörgyvölgyi Bakács (3d), LXVI Keresztúri Szabó (44), LXVII Adorján (45); black-and-white drawing numbers 59 Balajthy (a1), 60 Hiezernicai Tarnovszky (a2), 66 Devecseri Csoron (a8), 73 Gávai (af), 100 Thopolyai Gjanchewyth (cc), 124 Ochay (e4), 129 Peleskef{o"}i Istóczy (e9), 134 Morál (ee), 140 Köcsei Rodvánczy (f4), 142 Nagyidai Bornemissza (f6), 144 Miskolci Szahary (f8), 148 Ary (fc), 149 Prodi Rácz (fd), 163 Zok (10b), 171 Dics{o"}szentmártoni Szabó (113), 182 Lugosi Ztanissa (11e), 183 Váradi Barcza (11f), 193 Radics (129), 197 Bántó (12d).

    Light peripheral celestial objects (moons and/or stars) on blue, 15 examples in addition to those described above: plates XXXV Enyingi Török (27), LIII Cserneki Dessewffy (39), LIV Gimesi Forgách (3a), LXII Vízkelethy (40); black & whites 49 Bási (97), 53 Nádasdi Ercsi (9b), 69 Kolozsvári Zalczer (ab), 70 Krasznai Pándy (ac), 105 Rákói Rakovszky (d1), 127 Somogyi Koroknay (e7), 142 Nagyidai Bornemissza (f6), 147 Skerlecz (fb), 148 Ary (fc), 179 Tótdiósi Feinnecker (11b), 205 Kolozsvári Literatus (135).

    This was item 44 on the East letter of April 24, 2006.

Pray know that I remain,

In service,

Elisabeth de Rossignol
Laurel Principal Queen of Arms

Created at 2006-12-03T18:20:49