Laurel Letter of Pends and Discussion (LoPaD): March 19, 2008

Society for Creative Anachronism
College of Arms

16308 SE 165th St
Renton, WA 98058-8221

For the November 2007 meetings, printed March 19, 2008

To all the College of Arms and all others who may read this missive, from Elisabeth Laurel, Jeanne Marie Wreath, and Margaret Pelican, greetings.

This letter contains the issues raised in the November 2007 LoAR for CoA discussion. The text in this letter is copied verbatim from that LoAR; it is provided here for convenience. As with a March LoI, these matters are currently scheduled for the Pelican and Wreath meetings in July 2008. Original commentary, responses, and rebuttals to commentary must be entered into OSCAR no later than Monday, June 30, 2008.

  1. Brandr hani. Name.

    Listed on the LoI as Brandr hani, the name was originally submitted as Brandr inn hani. No mention of the change or the reason for the change was made on the LoI. Failure to mention changes is cause for return or pending. We are pending this name to allow the commenters to address whether it is registerable in its originally submitted form.

    This is the documentation and checkbox summary from the LoI:

    Submitter desires a male name.

    Meaning ("Brandr the Rooster") most important.

    The name is Old Norse. Brandr is a masculine given name found in "Viking Names found in the Landnámabók," Aryanhwy merch Catmael, <>.

    hani, "rooster," is found in "Viking Bynames found in the Landnámabók," Aryanhwy merch Catmael, <>. [The client's legal surname is Glasscock.]

    His device has been registered under the holding name Brandr of Atenveldt.

    This was item 5 on the Atenveldt letter of July 28, 2007.

  2. Clarissima della Chiesa. Device. Azure, a talbot's head erased argent between three plates.

    This device is pended to consider the potential conflict with the device for Jessyca of Rivenvale, Azure, a wolf's head erased between three maple leaves argent. There is a CD for changing the type of secondary charges. Under current policy, there is not a CD for changing the type of canine head.

    Commentary raised the issue of whether or not we should grant a CD between a talbot's head and a wolf's head. It was argued that, by the same criteria we use for granting difference between a raven and a popinjay (they were considered different charges in period and were consistently drawn by any given heraldic artist such that there were differences between the two), we ought to grant difference between a talbot and a wolf - or at least between their heads. One of the main arguments against granting such a difference is the fact that in the SCA we use many more breeds of dogs than were used in period heraldry. We encourage the College to provide their thoughts on this issue. We also encourage research into the distinction of various canines in period heraldry.

    This device is clear of the device for George of Glen Laurie, Azure, a St. Bernard dog's head couped at the neck bearing a cask at its neck, all proper. [Canis familiaris extrariis St. Bernardi]. There is CD for adding the plates. There is a second CD for changing the tincture of the dog's head; George's St. Bernard is half argent and half brown with sable markings.

    This was item 2 on the Ansteorra letter of July 31, 2007.

  3. Isabeau Beauyeux. Name.

    Listed on the LoI as Isabeau Beauyeux, the forms showed Isabeau de Beaux Yeux. When names are changed in kingdom, even if it is in consultation with the submitter, it is necessary to list the change, the reason for the change, and the originally submitted form on the LoI. This allows the commenters to evaluate changes made to ensure they are consistent with period practice and the submitter's stated wishes. Failure to mention changes on the LoI is grounds for returning (if the omissions are continual or egregious) or pending names. We are pending this item to allow the commenters the opportunity to address this name knowing its full history. We would also have the commenters consider further whether this or any other forms they may suggest conflict with the registered name Ysabel de Bayeux

    The submitter included the following documentation for her proposed byname:

    de - French of "of", "of the"

    Beaux Yeux - The submitter desires a French byname meaning "beautiful eyes".

    Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, E. Cobham Brewer, 1989 notes the phrase "Beaux Yeux" meaning "beautiful eyes". url

    Translation from English to French via web-tool Bable Fish [sic] gives "beaux yeux" for "beautiful eyes". url:

    The June 1993 LOAR stats, "In both English and French, bynames are usually straightforward dscriptions: of origin, of personal description, of trade or craft." (Lynette la Tisserande des Mots, p17) The phrase "beautiful eyes" falls into the category of personal description of epithet.

    Noted are surnames with French origins which utilize the descriptive element "beautiful"; Reaney & Wilson, p 35, s.n. Beaufront, it states "John Beaufront 1382 AssLo, A nicname, 'beautiful forehear', OFR beau, front. CF Henry Beaubraz 1228 FFO ' beautiful arms'; John Beucol 1327 SRY 'fair neck'; Ivo Beaudonte 1327 SRSo 'beautiful teeth'; Richard Beaupel 1218 P (D) 'beautiful skin'." Thus "beautiful eyes does not seem to be asmiss from the practice that creates names meaning 'beautiful teech', 'beautiful arms' etc.

    Her armory has been registered under the holding name Isabeau of Forgotten Sea.

    This was item 9 on the Calontir letter of July 26, 2007.

Pray know that I remain,

In service,

Elisabeth de Rossignol
Laurel Principal Queen of Arms

Created at 2008-03-18T16:16:02