Society for Creative Anachronism
College of Arms
For the June 2021 meetings, printed August 9, 2021
To all the College of Arms and all others who may read this missive, from Emma Laurel, Elisabetta Pelican, and Oddr Wreath, greetings.
The recent Known World Heraldic and Scribal Symposium was a grand event as usual! Sponsored by the Kingdom of the West, we were forced to pivot from an in-person event to an entirely virtual one, and the West Kingdom event team did a spectacular job. I'd like to thank the event steward, Domamir Vlatko syn, and his staff: Rivka of Shushan, Jocelyn d'Orleans, Tellina di Giuseppe da Fiesole, Else Hünrvogt, Þórkatla Yngvarsdóttir, and all the many volunteer moderators and other helpers. As with last year's KWHSS, we were able to have more teachers from all over the Known World than a typical in-person event, which is always lovely to see.
We opened the call for bids for next year's KWHSS back on the March Cover Letter. Due to the difficulty in planning an in-person event for next summer, we've extended the deadline until December 1. With the reality of the ongoing pandemic, we would love to see an in-person event, but are requesting it be confined to the continental United States due to border uncertainty; likewise, the event bid should consider the possibility of having to do another virtual event. The Laurel office does have a Zoom account with the Large Meeting add-on (larger attendance cap and breakout rooms) available if an event team does not have access to one.
Please remember that bids posted to OSCAR are publicly readable. Because of this, any personal information, such as legal names, addresses, phone numbers, and email, should not be included in these bids without signed written permission. Such information as is necessary for the entire College of Arms to see should be posted as a comment after the bid is finalized; any identifying information that the Sovereigns might need should be included as a Sovereign Note.
Please send a copy of the full unredacted bid to Laurel at [email protected].
As a reminder, there is a KWHSS domain and web hosting space available on the SCA's servers. Please do not register a new domain. There is some information available at https://heraldry.sca.org/kwhss/, but it is woefully out of date (and being worked on). Please contact Laurel if you have any questions.
vKWHSS will be held again in Jan 2022, with the aim of turning this into an annual event. Last year's team will again be running the event, but are seeking co-stewards who are interested in running the event in 2023. The hope would be that the 2023 team would again have a co-steward team who would be interested in running the following year's event. Interested parties should have good communication skills, excellent Zoom, and/or Discord knowledge. The ability and flexibility to work with a cross-kingdom team is a must.
Please email applications to [email protected]. Applications are due October 1, 2021.
First of all, I must give many thanks to Mistress Sciath ingen Chaennaig for her service in, most notably, tackling the very idea of a reorganization/redesign of the heraldry website (a truly daunting task!). We are opening the office for applications at this time, and while the website is merely one part of Clarion's office, we would like to make completing the reorganization a priority project.
Clarion has the responsibility for encouraging heraldic education at all levels. This deputy is tasked with the following duties, plus other such tasks as assigned by Laurel:
Working with Kingdoms and Laurel to improve heraldic education
Acting as a resource for kingdoms in their own heraldic education programs
Encouraging the production of online education resources and coordinating to make them available on the Laurel website
Preparing quarterly reports to Laurel on the status of heraldic education
Please email applications to [email protected], including your mundane contact information and membership information. Applications are due by December 1, 2021.
Recently, a question was posed to the College of Arms regarding documentation required to prove a person was someone's legal heir. While we do accept legal documents such as the decedent's legal will or death certificate as proof, we are also willing to accept attestation of the death and of the legal heir's identity. To that end, we hereby direct Palimpsest to add the following form letter to Appendix D of the Administrative Handbook to help submitters. This letter may be used for the transfer of registered items belonging to a deceased individual to their designated legal heirs when no heraldic will is in place, as well as other administrative actions such as granting permission to conflict, or otherwise triggering the effect of a heraldic will:
I, [Legal name], known in the Society as [Society name], hereby attest that I am the designated legal heir of [Legal name of decedent]'s identity in the Society and that [Legal name of decedent] died on [date]. I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct.
[Date] [Signature of [Legal name]]
This month, more than many others, was indeed a daunting task, bringing to fruition a long-awaited update to our Glossary of Terms. Along with that came a rather substantial number of reblazons.
I, mere Wreath, most assuredly, disclaim credit for that work.
Credit for that effort lands quite squarely on the head of Jeanne Marie Palimpsest and Bruce Batonvert, who spent long hours looking through our archives to determine what, really, we have meant by proper when it appears in our blazon. Thankfully, for most things, we appear to have had a consistent if oft-unstated idea of what proper should be. I was consulted to resolve sometimes fascinating inconsistencies.
A substantial bulk of the letter you are about to study could not have happened without these two excrutiatingly detail-oriented individuals (and perhaps it's safe to say that about most of my work, especially of late).
The Glossary of Terms Table 4, Conventional "Proper" Colorings will be updated in the next day or two based on the changes proposed on Palimpsest's March 6th Rules Letter and feedback from the College. When updating the table, it was noted that some items had been registered in the past with an assumed proper but that proper was never explicitly defined. The following definitions have been added to (or modified in) the table:
Axe: An axe proper has a sable blade and a brown haft or handle; the tincture is taken from the blade. An axe <tincture> hafted proper has a brown (wooden) handle.
Barrel: Barrels are generally wooden and thus are brown when proper.
Bear: Research by Iago Boar has shown that most bears in period heraldry are either a standard heraldic tincture or brown. Therefore we are defining a bear proper to be brown.
Bow: Whether used by archers or musicians, bows are generally wooden and thus are brown when proper. Their string is generally sable but the tincture is not blazoned.
Frauenadler: Like harpies, frauenadler have their human portions as defined under Human/Human Parts on Table 4 of the Glossary of Terms and brown plumage. The tincture is taken from the plumage even though the human portion is blazoned first.
Hautboy or Shawm: A period instrument, this is generally made of wood and thus brown when proper.
Grapes: Precedent (03/2005 CL) states "When blazoned proper the leaves should be vert, the fruit purpure." To that we are adding that the stem may be either vert or brown, in line with the defined proper for slipped and leaved and for vines.
Hawk: Hawks come in a variety of tinctures but most of the ones registered as proper are primarily brown, sometimes with lighter brown/tan details. We are therefore defining a hawk proper as brown. The lighter details are unblazoned artistic details.
Holly: Holly proper has vert leaves and gules berries.
Monarch butterfly: When proper these butterflies are orange to reddish-orange, their wings outlined in sable (with optional argent markings), and a sable body. A monarch butterfly proper is granted no difference from a butterfly gules.
Nest: A nest is primarily made of branches, therefore a nest proper is defined as brown.
Otter: An otter proper is brown.
Pickaxe: A pickaxe proper has a sable head and a brown haft. Its tincture is taken from the head. A pickaxe proper will thus be considered a color and it will conflict with a pickaxe sable. A pickaxe argent hafted proper has an argent head and a brown haft; it is considered argent for purposes of conflict and contrast.
Puffin: A puffin's beak is brightly colored but not in a standard pattern nor in heraldic tinctures. A puffin proper is sable, bellied and marked argent, and considered neutral in tincture. The tincture of its beak and legs is an unblazoned artistic detail.
Rose Bush: A rose bush (or rosebush) proper has a vert trunk and branches, and roses that are proper (gules petals, vert barbs, Or seeds). The tincture of a rose bush is taken from its trunk and branches.
Slipped and Leaved: Charges that are slipped and leaved proper have a brown or vert stem and vert leaves; in most cases the slip and leaves do not contribute to the heraldic difference or affect the tincture class of the charge they are attached to.
Staff (including ragged staves): Staves are made of wood and thus are brown when blazoned as proper.
Trebuchet and catapult: These are made of wood and thus are brown when blazoned as proper.
Zebra: Zebras proper are argent striped sable or sable striped argent; they are considered neutral charges.
At this time we are declaring that there is no defined proper for dogs, wolves, horses, ravens, or t'ai-chi. Also, proper is not defined for a leaf, though it is defined for slipped and leaved as noted above. In general, proper is used to simplify what would otherwise be complex tincturing, or to permit the use of brown, and as such will not be defined merely to alias a simple heraldic tincture such as argent or vert.
Armory is being reblazoned as necessary based on these and the other definitions of proper on the revised table. We wish to thank Bruce Batonvert for his help with this reblazoning project.
Iago Boar has recently provided evidence of period depictions of rainbows. He found one example similar to a natural rainbow but with the bands reversed from our standard natural rainbow. The same rainbow is also emblazoned as a heraldic rainbow in the same source. These images are from L'Armorial dit d'Anthoine de Clémery, c. 1540-1600 French (Paris, BnF, ms. Français 23076), ff. 179v, 99v, https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530382890.
Our current standard definition of a heraldic rainbow is based on English armory, as defined by Parker in A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry. Iago notes
Of the 18 coloured or tricked examples I've found of rainbows in German heraldry all but one have three bands. 13 of the 18 are gules, Or, and vert in some order (with g, O, v the most common, accounting for 7 of the 13), no matter whether they appear on a metal or colour field. 3 of the remaining are Or, azure and gules, in that order; each of these examples are on argent fields. The remaining 2 consist of one vert, Or, Or that appears to have been miscoloured; and one that is effectively a natural rainbow, just with the tinctures in reverse order...
A couple of examples:
1) Wernigeroder (Schaffhausensches) Wappenbuch, last quarter of 15th C German (München, BSB, cod. icon. 308 n), f. 197r, https://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00043104/image_389
2) Hermann Bote: Schichtbuch, 1512-1513 German (Wolfenbüttel, Herzog August Bibl., Cod. Guelf. 120 Extrav.), f. 217v, http://diglib.hab.de/mss/120-extrav/start.htm?image=00438
It should also be noted that the vast majority of German rainbows issue from the edges of the field, not from clouds; though I did find one uncoloured example of the arms of Regenspurg with clouds (Gemeiner loblicher Eydgnoschafft Stetten, 1548 German, p. 127, https://books.google.ca/books?id=3WldqtQXj44C)
Based on this evidence we are changing our definitions of proper for rainbows, both heraldic and natural. While German rainbows seem to be throughout by default, we are choosing to keep the current Society standard of non-issuant as the default. This is what people expect from rainbows, and matches the majority of rainbows registered. It is simple enough to blazon a rainbow as throughout, or issuant from the sides, when that it how it is drawn.
Natural rainbows proper are banded gules, orange, Or, vert, azure, indigo, purpure (or the reverse); the use of indigo is optional. The order of the bands is not a blazonable detail.
Natural rainbows proper are considered a colored charge. This means that they may only be placed on metal or neutral fields.
Heraldic rainbows proper consist of three or four bands. Three of those bands are gules, Or, and either vert or azure. The fourth band, if present, may be argent, vert or azure. The order of the bands does not matter; however, the outer bands should not share a tincture with the portion of the field that they are on.
Heraldic rainbows proper are considered neutral in terms of contrast. This means that they may be placed on any field; however, they must still be identifiable as rainbows.
Based on examples found so far it seems that period heralds treated rainbows proper as neutral charges, thus we choose to likewise treat them as neutral.
Both natural and heraldic rainbows are clouded by default, with the clouds being argent unless otherwise specified.
Clouds require some contrast but not good contrast with the field.
The presence of clouds is a blazonable detail but does not contribute to difference.
A rainbow that is blazoned as couped or cloudless lacks clouds.
The exception are rainbows that are throughout or issuant from the sides; these rainbows are cloudless by default.
Rainbows proper conflict no matter what their tincture and style (heraldic/natural).
Armory with rainbows proper has been reblazoned. If someone wishes the tinctures of their rainbow, or the particular order, blazoned, they may submit a request for reblazon.
We wish to thank Iago Boar for his research on this subject.
Examples found by Iago Boar showed that a period fox proper need not have sable socks. Additionally, period foxes also sometimes had argent chests as well as tail tips. These examples include:
Sammlung von Wappen aus verschiedenen, besonders deutschen Ländern, c 1600 German (München, BSB Cod.icon. 307), p. 164, https://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00020245/image_152
Donaueschinger Wappenbuch, c. 1460 German (Badische Landesbibliothek, Cod. Donaueschingen 496), f. 80r, https://nbn-resolving.de/urn:nbn:de:bsz:31-134228/fragment/page=6092982
Given this variation in period, we are amending the definition of a fox proper. The presence, or absence, of the sable socks and argent chest are unblazonable artistic details.
Among other definitions of proper, we're also addressing owls proper and falcons proper, a fair number of which have been registered (some with Linnaean descriptors). We are clarifying their definitions as follows:
Owls
A simple owl, with no other qualifier, has no defined proper coloration. Many owls in nature are brown, so a brown owl proper would be allowed. Of our current registrations with owls proper, many specify a breed to get a particular coloration. In practice, however, these are either mostly brown with very minor markings - for which brown owl proper is sufficient - or they're just as readily blazoned in heraldic tinctures. For instance, a snowy owl proper is white with minor black markings; we'd consider it simply an owl argent. Registrations that can be reblazoned in heraldic tinctures have been reblazoned on this letter, and most of the remaining proper owls have been reblazoned as brown owls proper.
The exception is the Great Horned owl proper, of which we have about a dozen registrations. These owls aren't easily blazoned in heraldic tinctures, nor simply as brown: they're in varying shades of tan or brown, with complex black markings, and a cream or tan underside. They include the characteristic large feather tufts which give this owl its name, details which would likely not be reproduced if they were reblazoned as simple owls. We will continue to allow the registration of Great Horned owls proper. They'll conflict with brown owls proper, and the "horns" don't contribute to difference.
Falcons
A simple falcon, with no other qualifier, does have a defined proper coloration: a falcon proper is brown. It's not necessary to specify brown falcon proper. For falcons, those registrations using Linnaean descriptors are almost always close enough to brown (with minor markings) that we've reblazoned them simply as falcons proper on this letter.
The exception is the peregrine falcon proper, of which we have a couple dozen registrations. In nature, peregrines have a blue-grey or brown back, a sable head, and distinctive barred brown-and-cream underparts; most Society registrations have brown backs, but there's still enough detailing that (brown) falcon proper doesn't adequately describe them, nor can they be easily blazoned in heraldic tinctures. So as with the Great Horned owl, we'll continue to allow the registration of peregrine falcons proper. They'll conflict with (brown) falcons proper.
On the March 1997 Cover Letter it was ruled "We are also no longer going to register Bengal tigers proper. They must be in a standard, heraldic tincture (with or without markings). We have registered as proper both gules and Or Bengal tigers, leaving them with no default tincture. Plain natural tigers proper, are still Or, marked sable." However, there is no distinction between a Bengal tiger and a natural tiger.
That precedent is hereby overturned. We will register a Bengal tiger or a natural tiger proper. Proper is an orangish-Or marked sable. Like charges that are grey proper they will be considered light (and conflict with Or) on a dark field or dark (and conflict with gules) on a light field. Bengal or natural tigers proper on a neutral field or on a fieldless badge must be a shade that is clearly light or dark.
There are currently no natural tigers proper registered. As for the Bengal tigers proper registered, we ask Morsulus to note the following in the O&A:
Gabrielle de l'Ambrosia, (Fieldless) A Bengal tiger rampant to sinister guardant, tail coward, proper, the tiger is light and will conflict with an Or cat.
James Bancoth, Azure, a Bengal tiger [Panthera tigris] statant guardant proper, in chief two mullets of eight points pierced argent, the tiger is light and will conflict with an Or cat.
Michael MacNaughton of Loch Ness, Sable, a Bengal tiger's head cabossed proper, ruffed argent, and on a chief triangular argent a mullet of six points sable, the tiger's head is light and will conflict with an Or cat's head.
Michael MacNaughton of Loch Ness (for the Brotherhood of the Stalking Tiger), Gyronny of six raguly sable and argent, a Bengal tiger's head caboshed proper, the tiger's head is light and will conflict with an Or cat's head.
Roxane of Barnby Moor, Argent, on a fess sable between a Bengal tiger passant proper and a bell Or, fimbriated sable, an arrow reversed Or, the tiger is dark and will conflict with a gules cat.
Sean FitzWallace, Gules, a Bengal tiger rampant guardant proper, within a bordure counter-compony argent and azure. [Leo tigris], the tiger is light and will conflict with an Or cat.
William of Fairhaven, Azure, a Bengal tiger's head erased contourny proper between three mullets argent, the tiger's head is light and will conflict with an Or cat's head.
Yaroslav the Persistent, Per bend sinister gules and argent, a phoenix within a serpent involved in annulo Or and a Bengal tiger salient contourny proper, the tiger is dark and will conflict with a gules cat.
This month we considered the Manx byname O'Fayle. Previous precedent has only allowed use of the apostrophe in Anglicized Irish bynames: "Anglicized Irish bynames were written both with and without an apostrophe after the O. For example, "Names Found in Anglicized Irish Documents," by Mari ingen Briain meic Donnchada (http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnglicizedIrish/) lists both Arte O Neale and Arte O'Neale."
Both the Anglicized Irish and the Manx records on which our data is based were written by English speakers rendering Gaelic/Manx names phonetically. These names sometimes included the apostrophe and sometimes they did not. Therefore, as of this writing, we hereby extend this precedent to explicitly rule that Manx bynames may be registered with or without an apostrophe after the O.
This month, commenters expressed concern about the pattern for order names of "saint + object of veneration" so it's time to review the evidence for this pattern again.
Two different kinds of order names match this pattern in broad terms: some describe particular items belonging with or to a saint. Others smply combine two separate names, one a saint's name and the other the name of an object, usually a heraldic charge or item that is another name for the order.
For the first pattern, we have the attested examples:
Ritterschaft sant Gergen Shiltz -'knightly order of Saint George's Shield' c. 1406
Gesellschaft mit sant Georgen und sant Wilhelms schild - 'with Saint George's and Saint Wilhelm's shield' 1346
Geselschaft auf St. Wilhelms Schilt - 'on Saint Wilhelm's Shield' 15th c.
For the second: Most period courtly orders were known by two names: (1) a saint's name and (2) the name of a heraldic charge. For example, the Order of the Garter is also the Order of Saint George. These two names were sometimes combined into a single name. Attested examples, using both or and of to combine them, include:
Comitivam sancti Georgii de la gartiere - 'Company of Saint George of the Garter' 1360
Ordo Sancti Georgii sive Societas Garterii - 'Order of Saint George or the Society of the Garter' 15th c. copy from 1348
Chevaliers de St George de la Compagnie du Gartier - 'knights of Saint George of the Company of the Garter' 15th c. copy from 1348
The societe of saynct George vulgarely called the order of the garter a. 1538
The same double-naming can be seen in other orders using both or and of to combine them:
Capelle sancti Georgi seu societas Templois - 'chapel of Saint George or society of the Grail-Templars' c. 1337
Societas capelle sancti Georgii Templois - 'society of the chapel of Saint George of the Grail-Templars' 14th c.
Gesellschaft St. Georges mit dem Pelikan - 'Society of Saint George with the Pelican' 1444
Other orders that had both a saint's name and a secular name that we have not found together include: Order of the Knot/Holy Spirit of Right Desire, Order of the Dragon/Saint George, Order of the Horn/Saint Hubert, Order of the Star/Our Lady of the Noble House, Order of the Thistle/Saint Andrew, Order of the Hound/Saint Hubert. Others have associations both with saints and a badge, but are only identified using one name.
Therefore, we register order names that follow the pattern of a saint's given name plus a heraldic charge (or an item that plausibly could be a heraldic charge). Such names can be registered with or without the word "Saint." For example, the hypothetical Order of Julianas Siren uses this pattern: Juliana is an attested English given name, used as a saint's name, and the siren is a heraldic charge found in the Pictorial Dictionary of Heraldry.
We thank Juliana de Luna, Siren Herald, for her work summarizing the data in her article "Medieval Secular Order Names", found at https://heraldry.sca.org/names/order/new/.
Please send information about happenings to major heralds and major happenings to all heralds to Laurel, so that it can be published here.
Letters of Intent, Comment, Response, Correction, et cetera are to be posted to the OSCAR online system. No paper copies need be sent. All submission forms plus documentation, including petitions, must be posted to the OSCAR online system. While black-and-white emblazons must be included in the Letter of Intent, only colored armory forms need to be posted in the forms area.
Cheques or money orders for submissions, payable to "SCA Inc.-College of Arms" are to be sent to Trent Le Clair, 928 Frazier Dr, Walla Walla WA 99362
Send roster changes and corrections to Laurel. College of Arms members may also request a copy of the current roster from Laurel.
For a paper copy of a LoAR, please contact Laurel, at the address above. The cost for one LoAR is $3. Please make all checks or money orders payable to "SCA Inc.-College of Arms". The electronic copy of the LoAR is available free of charge. To subscribe to the mailings of the electronic copy, please see the bottom of http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/lists.html#lists for more instructions.
For all administrative matters, please contact Laurel.
Items listed below in square brackets have not been scheduled yet. For information about future scheduling, please review the status table located on the Web at http://oscar.sca.org/index.php?action=137.
The June Laurel decisions were made at the Pelican meeting held on Sunday, June 6, 2021 and the Wreath meeting held on Saturday, June 5, 2021. These meetings considered the following letters of intent: Calontir (02 Mar, 2021), Meridies (02 Mar, 2021), Atlantia (05 Mar, 2021), Palimpsest Rules Letter (06 Mar, 2021), Laurel LoPaD (07 Mar, 2021), An Tir (09 Mar, 2021), Artemisia (13 Mar, 2021), Æthelmearc (20 Mar, 2021), Middle (21 Mar, 2021), West (23 Mar, 2021), Ealdormere (24 Mar, 2021), Atlantia (26 Mar, 2021), Lochac (27 Mar, 2021), Northshield (28 Mar, 2021), Caid (29 Mar, 2021), Atenveldt (30 Mar, 2021), Avacal (31 Mar, 2021), Drachenwald (31 Mar, 2021), Laurel LoPaD (20 Apr, 2021) (redraws). All commentary, responses, and rebuttals should have been entered into OSCAR by Monday, May 31, 2021.
The July Laurel decisions were made at the Pelican meeting held on Sunday, July 18, 2021 and the Wreath meeting held on Saturday, July 3, 2021. These meetings considered the following letters of intent: Trimaris (01 Apr, 2021), Meridies (02 Apr, 2021), Calontir (07 Apr, 2021), Laurel LoPaD (11 Apr, 2021), An Tir (12 Apr, 2021), Palimpsest Rules Letter (17 Apr, 2021), Æthelmearc (22 Apr, 2021), Atlantia (24 Apr, 2021), Ealdormere (24 Apr, 2021), Atenveldt (25 Apr, 2021), Gleann Abhann (25 Apr, 2021), Palimpsest Rules Letter (27 Apr, 2021), Lochac (28 Apr, 2021), Outlands (28 Apr, 2021), Palimpsest Rules Letter (28 Apr, 2021), Atlantia (29 Apr, 2021), Caid (29 Apr, 2021), Ansteorra (30 Apr, 2021), Avacal (30 Apr, 2021), Drachenwald (30 Apr, 2021), Northshield (30 Apr, 2021), West (30 Apr, 2021), Laurel LoPaD (19 May, 2021) (redraws), Laurel LoPaD (02 Jun, 2021) (redraws). All commentary, responses, and rebuttals should have been entered into OSCAR by Wednesday, June 30, 2021.
The August Laurel decisions were made at the Pelican meeting held on Sunday, August 8, 2021 and the Wreath meeting held on Sunday, August 1, 2021. These meetings considered the following letters of intent: Middle (05 May, 2021), An Tir (10 May, 2021), Calontir (11 May, 2021), Artemisia (16 May, 2021), Palimpsest Rules Letter (18 May, 2021), Atlantia (22 May, 2021), Ealdormere (24 May, 2021), Ealdormere (24 May, 2021), Gleann Abhann (24 May, 2021), Lochac (24 May, 2021), Æthelmearc (28 May, 2021), Avacal (28 May, 2021), Outlands (28 May, 2021), Caid (29 May, 2021), Atenveldt (30 May, 2021), Drachenwald (31 May, 2021), East (31 May, 2021), Northshield (31 May, 2021), West (31 May, 2021). All commentary, responses, and rebuttals should have been entered into OSCAR by Saturday, July 31, 2021.
Not all letters of intent may be considered when they are originally scheduled on this cover letter. The date of posting of the LoI, date of receipt of the Laurel packet, or other factors may delay consideration of certain letters of intent. Additionally, some letters of intent received may not have been scheduled because the administrative requirements (receipt of the forms packet, receipt of the necessary fees, et cetera) have not yet been met.
REMINDER: Until all administrative requirements are met, the letter may not be scheduled.
Pray know that I remain,
In service,
Emma de Fetherstan
Laurel Queen of Arms
Created at 2021-08-10T21:08:20