| Laurel: | Date: (year.month.date) | Precedent: |
| François la Flamme | 2004.03 | [...] The documentation provided for Lorand in the LoI was the statement: "[Lorand Lepes} a duke or prince of Transylvania 1415-1438 found at <http://www.friesian.com/perifran.htm>". Black Pillar found that the cited website listed Lorand in a Hungarian context:
Nebuly found additional references to the person mentioned in the submitted website:
[...] This name includes a Hungarian masculine given name, Lorand, in an otherwise English name. Lacking evidence of significant contact between speakers of Hungarian and English in period, a name combining these languages is not registerable. The submitter indicated that sound was most important to him. Colm Dubh's article "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris" (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/paris.html) lists Lorent de Tongues. As a name combining English and French is registerable, we have changed the Hungarian Lorand to the French Lorent to resolve the lingual combination issue in order to register this name. [Sabin Lorent Axstell of Mordaf, 03/2004, A-Middle] |
| François la Flamme | 2004.02 | Submitted as Bessenyei Rozsa, Rozsa was documented from Kalman's The World of Names. Kalman should be used with care since, as Nebuly explains, "he never provides dates and modernizes all spellings". Whenever possible, better documentation should be used.
Nebuly provided information regarding the elements of this name:
As Rossa is the closer of the two forms found by Nebuly to the submitted Rosza, we have changed the name to use this form in order to register this name. [Bessenyei Rossa, 02/2004, A-Atlantia] |
| François la Flamme | 2004.01 | Submitted as Peter Mihal, the submitter requested authenticity for Hungarian (not Latinized) "possibly as early as 1000 A.D." and indicated that he desired the name to mean 'Michael, son of Peter'.
While period Hungarian names may have either the given name or the byname first, in the cases of names with unmarked patronymics, we only register the name with the given name first in order to resolve any issues with conflict checking:
Nebuly suggested ways to address this issue:
As the form Peterfi Mihal is a smaller change than switching the order of the name elements to Mihal Peter, we have registered this name with the marked patronymic byname form Peterfi in order to meet the submitter's request for authenticity and to match his desired meaning. [Peterfi Mihal, 01/2004, A-Meridies] |
| François la Flamme | 2003.12 | This name is being returned for (1) lack of evidence of significant contact between speakers of Polish and French (or Hungarian and French, depending upon how you view the given name) in period, and (2) grammatical issues with the byname.
Listed on the LoI as Kinga la Roux, this name was submitted as Kinga de la Roux, the byname was changed at Kingdom to better match available documentation. The LoI provided documentation of Kinga found in Polish records in period:
The LoI also notes that the person referenced in these records is a woman who went on to become a saint. Nebuly identifies that the woman in question is culturally Hungarian, even though she is found in Polish records:
Based on this information, the submitted name combines either Polish and French or Hungarian and French in a name. Regardless, neither combination has previously been addressed. As no evidence of significant contact was provided and none was found, this name must be returned for lack of documenation of this lingual mix. Regarding the submitted byname, the form la Roux is not grammatically correct. Colm Dubh's article "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris" (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/paris.html) lists the masculine byname form le Rous (Lyon le Rous) and the feminine byname form la rousse (Aalis la rousse), both meaning 'the red'. Aryanhwy merch Catmael's article "Names Found in Commercial Documents from Bordeaux, 1470-1520" (http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~sfriedemann/names/bordeaux.htm) shows an inherited surname form: Leroux. Kingdom provided information from consultation with the submitter:
No evidence was found to support de 'of' used with any form of a byname la Rousse 'the red'. The byname forms la Roux and la Rous combine the feminine la with Roux and Rous, both of which are masculine. As none of these byname forms are grammatically correct, they are not registerable. [Kinga la Roux, 12/2003, R-Artemisia] |
| François la Flamme | 2003.08 | Submitted as Pierre von Vorman RaKogscy de Saint Germain, there were a number of issues with this name. [...]
As submitted, this combined French (Pierre and de Saint Germain), German (von Vorman), and Hungarian (RaKogscy) in a single name. Lacking evidence that there was a time and place that these three languages would have been spoken at the same time, this combination violates RfS III.1, which states in part, "Each name as a whole should be compatible with the culture of a single time and place." [...] No documentation was presented and none was found that RaKogscy is a plausible period form. Nebuly explains:
Lacking support for the form RaKogscy, and lacking evidence that French, German, and Hungarian would plausibly be combined in a name in period, we have dropped this element in order to register this name. [...] [Pierre Vorman de Saint Germain, 08/2003 LoAR, A-Meridies] |
| François la Flamme | 2003.05 | The submitter requested authenticity for Hungarian and allowed minor changes. No documentation was presented and none was found to support the use of two given names in Hungarian. Lacking such evidence, this name is not registerable. As the submitter only allowed minor changes, we were unable to drop one of the given name elements in order to register this name.
No documentation was provided to support Tudja as a period name in Hungarian. The submitter provided a copy of her birth certificate which lists Tuger as her surname. As the Legal Name Allowance only allows registration of the actual form of the legal name element, this documentation would allow registration of Tuger under the Legal Name Allowance, but would not support registration of Tudja. [Soffya Appollonia Tudja, 05/2003 LoAR, R-Atlantia] |
| François la Flamme | 2003.04 | This name is being returned for combining a Welsh given name with a Hungarian descriptive byname. al-Jamal addressed the documentation for Welsh-Hungarian contact provided in the LoI:
Lacking evidence that Welsh and Hungarian cultures had substantial contact, this name is not registerable. Additionally, no documentation was provided and none was found to support Nevetség(es) as a plausible Hungarian byname in period. Nebuly explains:
Lacking evidence that Nevetség(es) is a plausible period Hungarian word, much less a plausible period Hungarian byname, Nevetség(es) is not registerable. [Aneirin Nevetség(es), 04/2003 LoAR, R-Trimaris] |
| François la Flamme | 2003.01 | This name combines the Hungarian feminine given name Ersebet with an otherwise Italian name. There was considerable discussion regarding the registerability of such a mix. A name including Hungarian and Italian elements has previously been ruled to be registerable:
The Cover Letter of the August 1999 LoAR includes a discussion entitled "Mixed language names". This discussion describes different levels of contact between cultures. Of these, the level that best fits contact between Italian and Hungarian according to current evidence is:
Lingual mixes that fall into the second category, such as Hungarian and Italian, are registerable, though they carry a weirdness. As this is the only weirdness in this name, it is registerable. [Ersebet Francisca Cardinali, 01/2003 LoAR, A-Calontir] |
| François la Flamme | 2002.10 | This name is being returned for multiple issues. Regarding the submitter's wishes, the LoI stated that the submitter intended the name to mean "the white-haired wife of Stefan of the Afumati family." Also, the LoI said that, "The client wants a name authentic to 15th century Romania/Hungary and cares most about having a name from that language/culture."
The first issue with this name is that there is no given name in this name, and so it violates RfS III.2.a, which requires at least one given name and at least one byname in a personal name. Second, by combining the Romanian Stefán with the Hungarian -ne, the element Stefánne violates RfS III.1.a, which requires linguistic consistency within a name phrase. Third, the number of bynames may be an issue depending upon whether the submitter wishes Romanian or Hungarian. No documentation has been presented, and none was found, that a Hungarian name would contain more than one byname. Lacking such evidence, multiple bynames are not registerable in Hungarian. Since the LoI provided this information to the College, the College had the opportunity to research options for the submitter. Nebuly provided information regarding issues with this name and options that the submitter may wish to consider: The three biggest problems are that (1) it mixes Hungarian and Romanian elements even within individual phrases of the name (RfS III.1.a), (2) undocumentaed[sic] use of a three element name from Hungary (my research through thousands of period names has never turned up even one case with more than one given and one byname, for more see my article Hungarian Names 101), and (3) lack of a given name (required by RfS III.2.a).[Fehér Stefánne de la Afumati, 10/2002, R-Middle] |
| François la Flamme | 2002.07 | Submitted as Danil Batory, the submitter requested a "name correct for the Polish/Lithuanian Commonwealth". The submitted Batory is a Hungarian rather than a Polish or Lithuanian form. Nebuly found a Polish form of this name:
We have changed the byname to the form suggested by Nebuly to meet the submitter's request for authenticity. [Danil Bathoricz, 07/2002, A-West] |
| François la Flamme | 2002.07 | The LoI also noted that, "The client actually uses the name Michael of Endroc, but couldn't find documentation for Endroc. Any help on either byname would be appreciated." Orle found that "Endroc is a town in Hungary in county Baranya and region of Southern Transdanubia. HolinfoBank gives this modern information but I don't know how old this name is." For the element Endroc to be registerable, it would need to be documented as a plausible placename in period.
As the name submitted was Michael of Ravenskeep, and there is no mention of the element Endroc on the name submission form, we have registered a form of the submitted name. Lacking evidence that Ravenskeep is a documentable placename in period, we were unable to make this name authentic for the submitter's requested time and culture. [Michael of Ravenskeep, 07/2002, A-Outlands] |
| François la Flamme | 2002.06 | The submitter requested authenticity for Slovak and allowed any changes. The only documentation submitted for the byname was the comment in the LoI that "[s]ubmitter claims Bundas is Slovakian for Shaggy". Additionally, the submitter spelled the byname as Búnda{sv} on the form, rather than as Búndas as it was rendered on the LoI. A simple statement of the meaning of a word is not sufficient support for registration. Nebuly found information regarding this name:
The LoI neglected to mention that the submitter intentionally rendered his name in Hungarian. The "Notes" section of his name submission form explains that
As no evidence was found that any form of Búndas is a period word, we are unable to register this name. [Tamás Búndas, 06/2002, R-Atlantia] |
| François la Flamme | 2002.03 | Listed on the LoI as Vladimir of Esztergom, this name was submitted as Vladimir of Eszterg�m and changed at kingdom to a documentable spelling. The submitter requested authenticity for "Slavic/Rus" and allowed minor changes. Nebuly provided a hypothetical Slavic form of the byname:
As the submitter only allowed minor changes (and changing the language of the byname is a major change), we were unable to change the byname to the form suggested by Nebuly. However, we have changed the spelling of the location to partially meet the submitter's request for authenticity. [Vladimir of Eztergom, 03/2002, A-Atlantia] |
| François la Flamme | 2002.01 | As Gyory is a locative byname in Hungarian, this name may be registered with the byname preceding the given name. [Gyory Sandor, 01/02, A-An Tir] |
| François la Flamme | 2001.09 | Submitted as Istvan Buda, the submitter requested authenticity for Hungarian language/culture and allowed any changes. He noted in his documentation that he intended Buda to refer to the capital of Hungary in the 15th C. The name is registerable in the submitted form, but a byname Buda would mean that his father was named Buda. A man from the city of Buda would have the locative byname Budai. Nebuly states,
[T]he Hungarian language would normally put an adjective first, personal names seem to be an unusual case in period documents, with either name element being recorded first. Based on this, Laurel precedent allows either name element to be registered first, except when the byname is an unmarked patronym.Therefore, Istvan Budai and Budai Istvan are authentic forms of this name. Since the submitted order is authentic, we have left the given name first. [Istvan Budai, 09/01, A-Calontir] |
| Elsbeth Anne Roth | 2000.07 | The submitted documentation had this as a mixed Hungarian/Scots name. No evidence was presented that these cultures were in contact to an extent that would justify registering the name. However, Ladislaus is actually a Latinized form of a relatively common Slavic name, found almost all over Eastern Europe; also, de Brody is found in Reaney and Wilson, A Dictionary of English Surnames. We can therefore simply refer to the precedent from March 1993 that says a Russian/English mixed name is registerable. [Ladislaus de Brody, 07/00, A-Meridies] |
| Elsbeth Anne Roth | 2000.07 | This name has several problems. First, Hurrem/Roxelana, cited in the submission, was known by her original Russian name only to the West; to Turks, she was known by the Turkish harem name. Combining the two names seems to be restricted to modern history books.
Second, an epithet is not acceptable simply because a native speaker says so; modern-day people do not normally have that kind of knowledge about period naming practices. Third, Sarolta is incompatible with the rest of the name: it is only known from 10th century Hungary, and by the time of the Turkish invasion, pagan-era Hungarian female names had already disappeared. [Akilli Asian Sarolta, 07/00, R-Atenveldt] |
| Elsbeth Anne Roth | 1999.11 | [Kér Béla] There is no evidence, and none could be found, that tribal names, such as Ker, were used in Hungarian names. [Kér Béla, 11/99, R-Outlands] |
| Jaelle of Armida | 1998.11 | [Attila Györi Sandor] Since there is no evidence for double bynames in period Hungary, and since the submitter allows no changes, the name must be returned. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1998, p. 12) |
| Jaelle of Armida | 1998.08 | [Ileana Welgy] Submitted as Völgységi Ilona, the client wanted the appropriate Hungarian for Ileana of the Valley. Kázmér's Régi Magyar Családnevek Szótára: XIV-XVII Század", Magyar Nyelvtudományi Társaság gives Völgyi as the modern form for of the valley, but this spelling does not appear before 1720. The best period form appears to be Welgy, dated to 1448 and 1551. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR August 1998) |
| Jaelle of Armida | 1998.08 | [Ileana Welgy] While Ileana is not a Hungarian name, it can be found in De Felice's book on Italian given name. Venice controlled extensive territory on the east coast of the Adriatic in late period, sharing a border with Hungary. Since Kázmér includes a number of names apparently derived from Italian, an Italian/Hungarian name is acceptable under our rules. However, it must follow the standard practice of having the given name first. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR August 1998) |
| Jaelle of Armida | 1998.08 | [István Nyiregyhazi] Submitted as István Nyíregyhazi, while the LoI stated that the byname could be found in Kalman's The World of Hungarian Names, it could not be found in that spelling. We have substituted the closest documentable form, which is the same as the submitted form, but without an accent over the i. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR August 1998) |
| Jaelle of Armida | 1998.08 | [István Nyiregyhazi] The question was raised as to which is the appropriate form for Hungarian names, with the given name first or the byname first. Hungarian names may be registered with either the given name or byname as the first element, except when the byname is an unmarked patronym or metronym. In that case, the byname should follow the given name; this is consistent with Hungarian practice through the mid 16th century, and should help to avoid future confusion. Our thanks to Lord Walraven van Nijmegen for providing this information for us. [For a longer discussion of this ruling see the Cover Letter to the August 1998 Laurel letter.] (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR August 1998, p. 7) |
| Jaelle of Armida | 1998.08 | [Kinga MacKinnon] This is being returned for two reasons. First no period exemplars were presented and none could be found for Kinga as a period abbreviated form of Kunegunda. Secondly, no documentation was presented, and none could be found for regular contact between Hungary and Scotland. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR August 1998) |
| Jaelle of Armida | 1998.08 | The question was raised as to which is the appropriate form for Hungarian names, with the submission for István Nyiregyhazi. Should the given name go first or the byname first. Hungarian names may be registered with either the given name or byname as the first element, except when the byname is an unmarked patronym or metronym. In that case, the byname should follow the given name; this is consistent with Hungarian practice through the mid 16th century. (Jaelle of Armida, CL with the August 1998 LoAR, p. 2) |
| Jaelle of Armida | 1998.07 | [István Valkai] Submitted as István of Vukovar, the client requested that the name be corrected for the indicated language. The following documentation was provided by Walraven van Nijmegen:
My copy of "Decreta Regni Hungariae: 1458-1490" by Georgius Bønis et al. includes two official documents from the late 15th century identifying the region as "Walko" (p.201, 240), suggesting that the most commonly used name for the region was still "Walko" in late period. Though "Vukovár" is indeed the modern Hungarian name for this region, there does not appear to be a Hungarian locative (period or modern) derived from this spelling. Rather, the locative byname derives from the older form "Walko" and occurs in an array of spelling variants from 1418 on. By far, the most common period spellings are "Walkay"and "Valkay", and the modern form "Valkai" which first appears in 1573. We have corrected the locative to the form closest to the form submitted. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR July 1998) |
| Jaelle of Armida | 1998.01 | Submitted as Csendes Zsádany, neither element uses a period spelling. Csendes is dated 1693 and "ZS" is only used in modern spellings. We have corrected these to the closest period forms. (Czendes Sadany, 1/98 p. 5) |
| Jaelle of Armida | 1996.08 | [registering Gregor Vörös] Submitted in kingdom as Gregor Vörös, it was reversed and submitted as Vörös Gregor. ince this is not a wholly Hungarian name, which would have the surname first, but rather a Hungarian/German one, we see no reason not to put this into the form the submitter prefers. (Gregor Vörös, 8/96, p. 8) |
| Jaelle of Armida | 1996.08 | Hungarian practice is to put the given name after the surname, which practice was not followed here. Without evidence of Hungarian's using the standard practice of given name surname, and since the client will not take changes, the submission will have to be returned. [See, however, the ruling of 8/98 infra.] (Aléna Széllvár, 8/96 p. 9) |
| Baldwin of Erebor | 1986.03.09 | He has provided ample documentation that the surname precedes the given name in Hungarian usage. [BoE, 9 Mar 86, p.1] |