Collected Precedents of the S.C.A.: Persian

Name Precedents: Persian

See also:

Laurel:

Date: (year.month.date)

Precedent:

Shauna of Carrick Point 2004.05 The element al-Mãkdukht had several problems. First, al-Jamal states that Mãhdukht is a transcription error for M{a-}hdukht The name M{a-}hdukht is a Persian name; combining it with the Arabic al mixes Persian and Arabic in a single name phrase, in violation of RfS III.1.a. The byname al-Zarqá has a transcription error as well; the correct form is al-Zarqa'. In order to register the name, we have dropped the problematic elements and corrected the transcription of the remaining parts, giving M{a-}dukht al-Zarqa'. [M{a-}hdukht al-Zarqa',05/04, A-Trimaris]

François la Flamme 2004.03 The submitter requested authenticity for pre-11th C Persian. The submitted name, Ghalib al-Sami, is not a Persian name, though it is an authentic pre-11th C Arabic name. Siren observed "there were people with Arabic names living in Persia before the 11th century." Therefore, while this name is not an authentic pre-11th C Persian name, it is authentic for a person with an Arabic name living in pre-11th C Persia.
[Ghalib al-Sami, 03/2004, A-Æthelmearc]

François la Flamme 2004.02 Listed on the LoI as Ruzbihan al-Junayd al-Razi, this name was submitted as Junaid Ruzbihan ar-Razi. In both forms, this name combined two elements used as given names with a single byname. As such, lacking evidence that two given names were used in either Persian or Arabic names in period, this name was not registerable.
al-Jamal provided commentary regarding registerable forms of this name:
Ruzbihan seems fine (well, as a Persian name), documented in the cyberegypt site noted in the LoI as Ruzbihan ibn Hajji Na'im al-Din Katib Mudhahhib, i.e., Ruzbihan the illuminator, son of Na'im al-Din the scribe (literally, Ruzbihan the son of the pilgrim Na'im al-Din the scribe, the illuminator).
Al-Junayd (which could also [b]e transliterated al-Junaid) is a laqab-style name element used as an ism, a given name. It is documented in Dodge, the Fihrist of al-Nadim, vol. 2, pp. 1025-1026, in the names of Ibn al-Junayd; al-Junayd ibn 'Abd al-Rahman; and in three other examples. As such, then the name as submitted in the LoI effectively uses two given names in a row, something that was not done in period Arabic names. "Both 'Inan and Nihlah are Arabic feminine given names, but there is no evidence that Arabic names were formed of two given names."(Elsbeth Anne Roth, LoAR February 2000, p. 16)
Al-Razi is documented in the names of a number of individuals in Dodge: Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn 'Ali al-Razi; 'Ali al-Razi; Abu Sa'id Sahl ibn Ziyad al-Adami al-Razi; Abu Yusuf Ya'qub ibn Muhammad al-Razi.
The only real problem I see with the name is the construction. I can make the following recommendations:
Restore the "i" to Junaid; as I noted above, the transliteration with an "i" should be as acceptable as that with a "y".
The registrable form that would come closest to what he originally submitted would be al-Junaid ibn Ruzbihan al-Razi.
The registrable form that would come closest to what was submitted in the LoI would be Ruzbihan ibn al-Junaid al-Razi.
The registrable form that would come closest to what the LoI believes (without confirming) would be acceptable if an element had to be dropped would be al-Junaid ibn al-Razi.
All that said, if the meaning "the warrior" is what he cares most about (as stated in the LoI), al-Junaid does not meet that requirement. The "army" of that name is not a literal one, but rather a spiritual. Still, it's what he submitted, and it's registrable in any of the forms I recommend above.
Crescent forwarded al-Jamal's commentary to the submitter, who replied that his preferred choice of these options was al-Junaid ibn al-Razi. We have made this change. [al-Junaid ibn al-Razi, 02/2004, A-Caid]

François la Flamme 2004.02 The structure of this name raises issues as well. As submitted, it combines Persian and Roman name elements, an issue which the LoI did not address. Fortunately, the College was able to provide information that there was sufficient contact that the combination should be registerable, though with a weirdness. However, it combines a Persian given name with two Roman cognomen. Given that the majority of the name elements are Roman, the structure of this name must be judged in Roman terms.
The normal structure of a Roman name is [praenomen] [nomen] [cognomen], as in Caius Iulius Caesar. The elements Tigris and Iaxarticus are submitted as cognomens. Given names from other cultures do not map well to the Classical Roman trinomina system, but Darius could be considered equivalent to a nomen in the submitted name. A nomen followed by a cognomen, as in Iulius Caesar, is a normal use name in Classical Latin. There are many cases of Roman notables with multiple cognomens, such as Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus, who was also sometimes identified with just the cognomens as Scipio Africanus. However, no evidence was presented that the a nomen followed by multiple cognomens would be a reasonable usename for Classical Roman. Barring such evidence, the name cannot be registered in this form. [Darius Tigres Jaxarticus, 02/2004, R-Outlands]

François la Flamme 2003.04 The submitter requested authenticity for late 1500's Persia and allowed no major changes.
Roxana was documented as a modern rendering of the name of Alexander the Great's wife, who was Bactrian by birth and who died in 311 B.C. Regarding the submitted given name Roxana, the LoI also cited the precedent:
While we do not find this a very likely name, since the stories of Alexander the Great were so popular during the middle ages (Alexander was one of the Nine Worthies), and since there is documented evidence of taking names from Arthuriana, we are giving the submitter the benefit of the doubt. (Roxanne O'Malley, 10/96 p. 7)

The "documented evidence of taking names from Arthuriana" is for Western European languages, specifically French and English, not Middle Eastern languages. In the case cited above, Roxanne was registered as an English rendering of this name used in literary sources. Lacking evidence of a pattern of taking names from literature in Middle Eastern languages, and that Roxana is a Middle Eastern form of this name, Roxana is not registerable as a Middle Eastern given name. Siren found what seems to be a non-modernized form of this name:
[T]he lady was from the general Persian area (Bactria). An academic website (http://faculty.winthrop.edu/haynese/syll/notes/331/PERSIA.html) gives what seems to be a non-modernized version of her name as <Roshanak>.

Given this documentation, Roshanak is a feminine given name appropriate for 4th C B.C. Persia or Bactria. The submitted documentation does not address what forms of this name were used in period English literature. It would be those forms that would be registerable as English names under the literary name allowance.
The byname Farabi was documented as a modern rendering of the Arabic byname al-Farabi dated to A. D. 950/951. al-Jamal found information regarding this byname:
Abu Nasr Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Farabi (cited in the Fihrist of al-Nadim, vol. 2, p. 985), was "the distinguished philosopher and scholar of Greek learning, who lived at Baghdad but died at Damascus, 950/951, when 80 years old." The period form of his byname is al-Farabi; further, it is the masculine form. It would not have been used in Arabic in period without the article ("al-"), and it would not have been used in this form by a female (the feminine form would have been al-Farabiyya(h)) [...].
I don't trust the form (Abunasr Farabi) given by the website as the name for the Persian musician in pre-Islamic times; the name sounds more Arabic than Persian (the two languages are in fact fairly distinct), and their respective naming practices were dissimilar. As only one example, the Arabic form of the Persian Omar Khayyam's name is 'Umar al-Khayyami. Nor do I believe that Persian used abu ("father of") before the Arab conquest. Because of all this, I believe that the form of the name cited here, Abunasr Farabi, is a modern rather than a period form.

Siren also found information regarding this byname:
[...] <Abu Nasr> or <Abunasr>, as the website gives, is a name that is Arabic in form and content, not Persian, and <al-Farabi> the same - it also appears to be a locative (from Farab in Turkistan), and so would need to be feminized.

From this information, al-Farabiyya and al-Farabiyyah would be feminine forms of this Arabic byname appropriate for the mid-10th C. If the submitted byname Farabi were corrected to a period feminine form, then this name would combine a 10th C Arabic byname with a given name documented as a modern English rendering of a 4th C B.C. given name. [Roxana Farabi, 04/2003 LoAR, R-East]

François la Flamme 2002.12 Given the level of contact between their cultures, a name that includes Persian and Arabic name elements is registerable with a weirdness. [Shirin al-Adawiya, 12/2002, A-Atenveldt]

François la Flamme 2002.05 The submitter requested authenticity for pre-12th C Persian. Tavia is the her legal given name. As Tavia is usually a short form of Octavia, which was not a name used in Persian, we were unable to make this name authentic for the submitter's requested time and culture. [Tavia of Persia, 05/2002, A-Outlands]

François la Flamme 2002.02 Nasrin was documented as a Persian undated feminine given name in Gandhi and Husain, The Complete Book of Muslim and Parsi Names. The LoI proposes the use of Nasrin as follows:
The submitter notes that the word Nasrin is the name of several flowers (two species of rose, rosa glandulifera and rosa alba; and a jonquil), according to Gandhi and Husain, op. cit.. The place name Nasirin is constructed, based on the examples Homs, Tus, and Tiz (found on a map from Atlas of World) which words are found in Gandhi and Husain, op. cit. as meaning the ephedra plant (among other meanings); new leaf or young grass (spelled Tizh); and a white mulberry. This appears to substantiate that this made up place name is formed in accordance with period practice for place names (per RFS II.2).
This documentation gives no indication of what language Homs, Tus, and Tiz exist in. Also, there is no documentation that these words were the names of places in period or even were used in a language in period. This information would be necessary to support a hypothetical place name Nasrin. Additionally, if support was found for Nasrin as a place name in Persian, it would not be registerable in the form al-Nasriniyya, since it uses Arabic construction. RfS III.1.a requires linguistic consistency in a name phrase. For al-Nasriniyya to be registerable, Nasrin needs to be documented as a place name in Arabic. [Khalila al-Nasiriniyya, 02/02, R-Caid]

Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 2nd year)

1995.06

The submitter's documentation makes the overall name a combination of a Hebrew given name with a Persian given name. Neither language appears to have formed names in this way (unmarked patronymics). (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR June 1995, p. 26)

Bruce Draconarius of Mistholme

1993.09

While we have evidence of Arabic/Italian interaction in period, Persian/Italian interaction has yet to be demonstrated. (Beatrice Carmela Mercante, September, 1993, pg. 6)

Alisoun MacCoul of Elphane

1987.01.25

[Rayah Blackstar Banu] The translation for [the byname] Banu ("Lady") implies that it might be a title, which would not be permissible in a registered name; documentation must be provided that this is not the case. (LoAR 25 Jan 87, p. 26)

Laurel:	Date: (year.month.date)	Precedent:
Shauna of Carrick Point	2004.05	The element al-Mãkdukht had several problems. First, al-Jamal states that Mãhdukht is a transcription error for M{a-}hdukht The name M{a-}hdukht is a Persian name; combining it with the Arabic al mixes Persian and Arabic in a single name phrase, in violation of RfS III.1.a. The byname al-Zarqá has a transcription error as well; the correct form is al-Zarqa'. In order to register the name, we have dropped the problematic elements and corrected the transcription of the remaining parts, giving M{a-}dukht al-Zarqa'. [M{a-}hdukht al-Zarqa',05/04, A-Trimaris]
François la Flamme	2004.03	The submitter requested authenticity for pre-11th C Persian. The submitted name, Ghalib al-Sami, is not a Persian name, though it is an authentic pre-11th C Arabic name. Siren observed "there were people with Arabic names living in Persia before the 11th century." Therefore, while this name is not an authentic pre-11th C Persian name, it is authentic for a person with an Arabic name living in pre-11th C Persia. [Ghalib al-Sami, 03/2004, A-Æthelmearc]
François la Flamme	2004.02	Listed on the LoI as Ruzbihan al-Junayd al-Razi, this name was submitted as Junaid Ruzbihan ar-Razi. In both forms, this name combined two elements used as given names with a single byname. As such, lacking evidence that two given names were used in either Persian or Arabic names in period, this name was not registerable. al-Jamal provided commentary regarding registerable forms of this name: Ruzbihan seems fine (well, as a Persian name), documented in the cyberegypt site noted in the LoI as Ruzbihan ibn Hajji Na'im al-Din Katib Mudhahhib, i.e., Ruzbihan the illuminator, son of Na'im al-Din the scribe (literally, Ruzbihan the son of the pilgrim Na'im al-Din the scribe, the illuminator). Al-Junayd (which could also [b]e transliterated al-Junaid) is a laqab-style name element used as an ism, a given name. It is documented in Dodge, the Fihrist of al-Nadim, vol. 2, pp. 1025-1026, in the names of Ibn al-Junayd; al-Junayd ibn 'Abd al-Rahman; and in three other examples. As such, then the name as submitted in the LoI effectively uses two given names in a row, something that was not done in period Arabic names. "Both 'Inan and Nihlah are Arabic feminine given names, but there is no evidence that Arabic names were formed of two given names."(Elsbeth Anne Roth, LoAR February 2000, p. 16) Al-Razi is documented in the names of a number of individuals in Dodge: Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn 'Ali al-Razi; 'Ali al-Razi; Abu Sa'id Sahl ibn Ziyad al-Adami al-Razi; Abu Yusuf Ya'qub ibn Muhammad al-Razi. The only real problem I see with the name is the construction. I can make the following recommendations: Restore the "i" to Junaid; as I noted above, the transliteration with an "i" should be as acceptable as that with a "y". The registrable form that would come closest to what he originally submitted would be al-Junaid ibn Ruzbihan al-Razi. The registrable form that would come closest to what was submitted in the LoI would be Ruzbihan ibn al-Junaid al-Razi. The registrable form that would come closest to what the LoI believes (without confirming) would be acceptable if an element had to be dropped would be al-Junaid ibn al-Razi. All that said, if the meaning "the warrior" is what he cares most about (as stated in the LoI), al-Junaid does not meet that requirement. The "army" of that name is not a literal one, but rather a spiritual. Still, it's what he submitted, and it's registrable in any of the forms I recommend above. Crescent forwarded al-Jamal's commentary to the submitter, who replied that his preferred choice of these options was al-Junaid ibn al-Razi. We have made this change. [al-Junaid ibn al-Razi, 02/2004, A-Caid]
François la Flamme	2004.02	The structure of this name raises issues as well. As submitted, it combines Persian and Roman name elements, an issue which the LoI did not address. Fortunately, the College was able to provide information that there was sufficient contact that the combination should be registerable, though with a weirdness. However, it combines a Persian given name with two Roman cognomen. Given that the majority of the name elements are Roman, the structure of this name must be judged in Roman terms. The normal structure of a Roman name is [praenomen] [nomen] [cognomen], as in Caius Iulius Caesar. The elements Tigris and Iaxarticus are submitted as cognomens. Given names from other cultures do not map well to the Classical Roman trinomina system, but Darius could be considered equivalent to a nomen in the submitted name. A nomen followed by a cognomen, as in Iulius Caesar, is a normal use name in Classical Latin. There are many cases of Roman notables with multiple cognomens, such as Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus, who was also sometimes identified with just the cognomens as Scipio Africanus. However, no evidence was presented that the a nomen followed by multiple cognomens would be a reasonable usename for Classical Roman. Barring such evidence, the name cannot be registered in this form. [Darius Tigres Jaxarticus, 02/2004, R-Outlands]
François la Flamme	2003.04	The submitter requested authenticity for late 1500's Persia and allowed no major changes. Roxana was documented as a modern rendering of the name of Alexander the Great's wife, who was Bactrian by birth and who died in 311 B.C. Regarding the submitted given name Roxana, the LoI also cited the precedent: While we do not find this a very likely name, since the stories of Alexander the Great were so popular during the middle ages (Alexander was one of the Nine Worthies), and since there is documented evidence of taking names from Arthuriana, we are giving the submitter the benefit of the doubt. (Roxanne O'Malley, 10/96 p. 7) The "documented evidence of taking names from Arthuriana" is for Western European languages, specifically French and English, not Middle Eastern languages. In the case cited above, Roxanne was registered as an English rendering of this name used in literary sources. Lacking evidence of a pattern of taking names from literature in Middle Eastern languages, and that Roxana is a Middle Eastern form of this name, Roxana is not registerable as a Middle Eastern given name. Siren found what seems to be a non-modernized form of this name: [T]he lady was from the general Persian area (Bactria). An academic website (http://faculty.winthrop.edu/haynese/syll/notes/331/PERSIA.html) gives what seems to be a non-modernized version of her name as <Roshanak>. Given this documentation, Roshanak is a feminine given name appropriate for 4th C B.C. Persia or Bactria. The submitted documentation does not address what forms of this name were used in period English literature. It would be those forms that would be registerable as English names under the literary name allowance. The byname Farabi was documented as a modern rendering of the Arabic byname al-Farabi dated to A. D. 950/951. al-Jamal found information regarding this byname: Abu Nasr Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Farabi (cited in the Fihrist of al-Nadim, vol. 2, p. 985), was "the distinguished philosopher and scholar of Greek learning, who lived at Baghdad but died at Damascus, 950/951, when 80 years old." The period form of his byname is al-Farabi; further, it is the masculine form. It would not have been used in Arabic in period without the article ("al-"), and it would not have been used in this form by a female (the feminine form would have been al-Farabiyya(h)) [...]. I don't trust the form (Abunasr Farabi) given by the website as the name for the Persian musician in pre-Islamic times; the name sounds more Arabic than Persian (the two languages are in fact fairly distinct), and their respective naming practices were dissimilar. As only one example, the Arabic form of the Persian Omar Khayyam's name is 'Umar al-Khayyami. Nor do I believe that Persian used abu ("father of") before the Arab conquest. Because of all this, I believe that the form of the name cited here, Abunasr Farabi, is a modern rather than a period form. Siren also found information regarding this byname: [...] <Abu Nasr> or <Abunasr>, as the website gives, is a name that is Arabic in form and content, not Persian, and <al-Farabi> the same - it also appears to be a locative (from Farab in Turkistan), and so would need to be feminized. From this information, al-Farabiyya and al-Farabiyyah would be feminine forms of this Arabic byname appropriate for the mid-10th C. If the submitted byname Farabi were corrected to a period feminine form, then this name would combine a 10th C Arabic byname with a given name documented as a modern English rendering of a 4th C B.C. given name. [Roxana Farabi, 04/2003 LoAR, R-East]
François la Flamme	2002.12	Given the level of contact between their cultures, a name that includes Persian and Arabic name elements is registerable with a weirdness. [Shirin al-Adawiya, 12/2002, A-Atenveldt]
François la Flamme	2002.05	The submitter requested authenticity for pre-12th C Persian. Tavia is the her legal given name. As Tavia is usually a short form of Octavia, which was not a name used in Persian, we were unable to make this name authentic for the submitter's requested time and culture. [Tavia of Persia, 05/2002, A-Outlands]
François la Flamme	2002.02	Nasrin was documented as a Persian undated feminine given name in Gandhi and Husain, The Complete Book of Muslim and Parsi Names. The LoI proposes the use of Nasrin as follows: The submitter notes that the word Nasrin is the name of several flowers (two species of rose, rosa glandulifera and rosa alba; and a jonquil), according to Gandhi and Husain, op. cit.. The place name Nasirin is constructed, based on the examples Homs, Tus, and Tiz (found on a map from Atlas of World) which words are found in Gandhi and Husain, op. cit. as meaning the ephedra plant (among other meanings); new leaf or young grass (spelled Tizh); and a white mulberry. This appears to substantiate that this made up place name is formed in accordance with period practice for place names (per RFS II.2). This documentation gives no indication of what language Homs, Tus, and Tiz exist in. Also, there is no documentation that these words were the names of places in period or even were used in a language in period. This information would be necessary to support a hypothetical place name Nasrin. Additionally, if support was found for Nasrin as a place name in Persian, it would not be registerable in the form al-Nasriniyya, since it uses Arabic construction. RfS III.1.a requires linguistic consistency in a name phrase. For al-Nasriniyya to be registerable, Nasrin needs to be documented as a place name in Arabic. [Khalila al-Nasiriniyya, 02/02, R-Caid]
Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 2nd year)	1995.06	The submitter's documentation makes the overall name a combination of a Hebrew given name with a Persian given name. Neither language appears to have formed names in this way (unmarked patronymics). (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR June 1995, p. 26)
Bruce Draconarius of Mistholme	1993.09	While we have evidence of Arabic/Italian interaction in period, Persian/Italian interaction has yet to be demonstrated. (Beatrice Carmela Mercante, September, 1993, pg. 6)
Alisoun MacCoul of Elphane	1987.01.25	[Rayah Blackstar Banu] The translation for [the byname] Banu ("Lady") implies that it might be a title, which would not be permissible in a registered name; documentation must be provided that this is not the case. (LoAR 25 Jan 87, p. 26)