Collected Precedents of the S.C.A.: Romanian

Name Precedents: Romanian

Laurel: Date: (year.month.date) Precedent:

François la Flamme 2003.10 Submitted as Dragos cel �ntuneric David, the submitter requested authenticity for Romanian and allowed any changes.
Nebuly provided information about the elements in this name:
The only evidence I can find that David was used as a Romanian name is the 16th century Wallachian mural painter by that name (Giurescu, p.103). Thus, we know that David was used as a given name in Romanian. However, the information in the LoI about unmarked patronymics taken from Ary's article is incorrect. Ary has identified Petru Aron as meaning "Peter, son of Aaron," but the historical Petru Aron was the son of Alexandru cel bun (Rulers from Moldavia, www.ici.ro/romania/ history/hi93.html). I don't know what the byname Aron means, but it's clearly not a patronym in the cited name. The other reputed patronym is found in the name Stefan Tom{s,}a, but here again I don't believe this is actually a patronym. The Romanian form of Thomas is Toma, and I can think of no grammatical reason for inserting an s-comma below into a name to form a patronym.
The LoI notes that Ary's article claims four rulers in the list from Moldavia and Wallachia used a double byname, but I cannot find these anywhere unless the phrase "al II-lea" (the second) was counted as a byname. Since the client wishes an authentic Romanian name, and since we have no evidence for double bynames or for unmarked patronymics, I recommend we drop the element David.
The submitter has erred in choosing a byname meaning "the dark." The word �ntuneric means "dark" in the sense of twilight, or a lack of illumination, not in the sense of color. I'd expect to find cel negru as the correct form. My suggestion then is to register Dragos cel Negru, if the client allows.

As the submitter allows any changes, we have changed this name to the form suggested by Nebuly in order to meet the submitter's request for authenticity. [Dragos cel Negru, 10/2003, A-Artemisia]

François la Flamme 2003.08 Submitted as Dragos Severin, Severin was documented as the name of a Romanian town. Commentary provided for a submission earlier this year showed that locative bynames in Romanian in period typically used de la before the name of the town:
Submitted as Pavla Satu Marin, the LoI submitted Satu Marin as "a noun-based toponymic intended to mean 'Person of/from Satu-Mare'" and asked for assistance from the College for determining a proper construction for this byname. Nebuly provided information regarding period forms for bynames based on the location Satu Mare:
The town of Satu Mare is mentioned in records dating from 1072 (Giurescu, p52). Judging by names in the chronology of rulers in the back of the book, locatives in Romanian may be formed as de la [placename] or [placename] + -escu. Since I do not know the grammar rules for adding-escu (or for creating its feminine form), and I have previously found period records using de la, I recommend Pavla de la Satu Mare as the best form for registration. [Pavla de la Satu Mare, March 2003 LoAR, �thelmearc-A]

Using the information provided by Nebuly, we have changed this byname to de la Severin in order to register this name. [Dragos de la Severin, 08/2003 LoAR, A-Atenveldt]

François la Flamme 2003.03 Submitted as Pavla Satu Marin, the LoI submitted Satu Marin as "a noun-based toponymic intended to mean 'Person of/from Satu-Mare'" and asked for assistance from the College for determining a proper construction for this byname. Nebuly provided information regarding period forms for bynames based on the location Satu Mare:
The town of Satu Mare is mentioned in records dating from 1072 (Giurescu, p52). Judging by names in the chronology of rulers in the back of the book, locatives in Romanian may be formed as de la [placename] or [placename] + -escu. Since I do not know the grammar rules for adding-escu (or for creating its feminine form), and I have previously found period records using de la, I recommend Pavla de la Satu Mare as the best form for registration.

We have changed the byname to de la Satu Mare as recommended by Nebuly in order to register this name. [Pavla de la Satu Mare, 03/2003, A-Æthelmearc]

François la Flamme 2002.03 The submitter requested authenticity for Romania and allowed minor changes. Vladimir was documented as Russian. While both Vlad and Vladislav were found in Aryanhwy merch Catmael's article "Names from the Royal Lines of Moldavia and Wallachia" (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/romanian.html), the College was unable to find examples of Vladimir used in Romanian in period. As the submitter only allows minor changes, we were unable to change Vladimir to one of the Romanian forms found in Aryanhwy's article in order to make this name authentic for the submitter's requested culture.
At this time, it seems reasonable to for a name using both Russian and Romanian elements to be registerable. However, no one has presented evidence to support sufficient contact between these two cultures to make such a mix registerable without a weirdness. Therefore, a name mixing Russian and Romanian is registerable, but carries a weirdness. [Vladimir Musat, 03/2003, A-Outlands]

Laurel:	Date: (year.month.date)	Precedent:
François la Flamme	2003.10	Submitted as Dragos cel �ntuneric David, the submitter requested authenticity for Romanian and allowed any changes. Nebuly provided information about the elements in this name: The only evidence I can find that David was used as a Romanian name is the 16th century Wallachian mural painter by that name (Giurescu, p.103). Thus, we know that David was used as a given name in Romanian. However, the information in the LoI about unmarked patronymics taken from Ary's article is incorrect. Ary has identified Petru Aron as meaning "Peter, son of Aaron," but the historical Petru Aron was the son of Alexandru cel bun (Rulers from Moldavia, www.ici.ro/romania/ history/hi93.html). I don't know what the byname Aron means, but it's clearly not a patronym in the cited name. The other reputed patronym is found in the name Stefan Tom{s,}a, but here again I don't believe this is actually a patronym. The Romanian form of Thomas is Toma, and I can think of no grammatical reason for inserting an s-comma below into a name to form a patronym. The LoI notes that Ary's article claims four rulers in the list from Moldavia and Wallachia used a double byname, but I cannot find these anywhere unless the phrase "al II-lea" (the second) was counted as a byname. Since the client wishes an authentic Romanian name, and since we have no evidence for double bynames or for unmarked patronymics, I recommend we drop the element David. The submitter has erred in choosing a byname meaning "the dark." The word �ntuneric means "dark" in the sense of twilight, or a lack of illumination, not in the sense of color. I'd expect to find cel negru as the correct form. My suggestion then is to register Dragos cel Negru, if the client allows. As the submitter allows any changes, we have changed this name to the form suggested by Nebuly in order to meet the submitter's request for authenticity. [Dragos cel Negru, 10/2003, A-Artemisia]
François la Flamme	2003.08	Submitted as Dragos Severin, Severin was documented as the name of a Romanian town. Commentary provided for a submission earlier this year showed that locative bynames in Romanian in period typically used de la before the name of the town: Submitted as Pavla Satu Marin, the LoI submitted Satu Marin as "a noun-based toponymic intended to mean 'Person of/from Satu-Mare'" and asked for assistance from the College for determining a proper construction for this byname. Nebuly provided information regarding period forms for bynames based on the location Satu Mare: The town of Satu Mare is mentioned in records dating from 1072 (Giurescu, p52). Judging by names in the chronology of rulers in the back of the book, locatives in Romanian may be formed as de la [placename] or [placename] + -escu. Since I do not know the grammar rules for adding-escu (or for creating its feminine form), and I have previously found period records using de la, I recommend Pavla de la Satu Mare as the best form for registration. [Pavla de la Satu Mare, March 2003 LoAR, �thelmearc-A] Using the information provided by Nebuly, we have changed this byname to de la Severin in order to register this name. [Dragos de la Severin, 08/2003 LoAR, A-Atenveldt]
François la Flamme	2003.03	Submitted as Pavla Satu Marin, the LoI submitted Satu Marin as "a noun-based toponymic intended to mean 'Person of/from Satu-Mare'" and asked for assistance from the College for determining a proper construction for this byname. Nebuly provided information regarding period forms for bynames based on the location Satu Mare: The town of Satu Mare is mentioned in records dating from 1072 (Giurescu, p52). Judging by names in the chronology of rulers in the back of the book, locatives in Romanian may be formed as de la [placename] or [placename] + -escu. Since I do not know the grammar rules for adding-escu (or for creating its feminine form), and I have previously found period records using de la, I recommend Pavla de la Satu Mare as the best form for registration. We have changed the byname to de la Satu Mare as recommended by Nebuly in order to register this name. [Pavla de la Satu Mare, 03/2003, A-Æthelmearc]
François la Flamme	2002.03	The submitter requested authenticity for Romania and allowed minor changes. Vladimir was documented as Russian. While both Vlad and Vladislav were found in Aryanhwy merch Catmael's article "Names from the Royal Lines of Moldavia and Wallachia" (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/romanian.html), the College was unable to find examples of Vladimir used in Romanian in period. As the submitter only allows minor changes, we were unable to change Vladimir to one of the Romanian forms found in Aryanhwy's article in order to make this name authentic for the submitter's requested culture. At this time, it seems reasonable to for a name using both Russian and Romanian elements to be registerable. However, no one has presented evidence to support sufficient contact between these two cultures to make such a mix registerable without a weirdness. Therefore, a name mixing Russian and Romanian is registerable, but carries a weirdness. [Vladimir Musat, 03/2003, A-Outlands]