Collected Precedents of the S.C.A.: Turkish

Name Precedents: Turkish

See also:

Laurel:

Date: (year.month.date)

Precedent:

François la Flamme 2003.12 The documentation provided for the byname of Zigana in the LoI was:
The submitter provides a web site -- http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lapyrinth/2398/bginfo/geo/trebizon.html - as documentation for the locative. It states that the Zigana Pass was the route that Marco Polo traveled on his way home to Venice in 1295.

While this demonstrates that the pass existed in period, it only supports Zigana as the modern name for this pass. Lacking evidence that it is a period name for this location, it is not registerable.
Metron Ariston regarding the byname of Zigana:
There is indeed a great deal of doubt as to whether the Turkish form of the name used here was actually used in period for either the pass or any locality nearby in which humans lived in antiquity or the medieval period. While Xenophon clearly brought his troops back from Persia by the pass (he describes it clearly), the largest city in the area was Trapezus or Trebizond, although the geographer Strabo, a contemporary of the Emperor Augustus, also mentions the city of Zigopolis which many scholars associate with the modern Zigana area (www.kultur.gov.tr).

Since there is no indication that Zigana is a period name, the element Zigana is not registerable and this name must be returned. [Bathsheba of Zigana, 12/2003, R-West]

François la Flamme 2003.07 Submitted as Karchar of the Blue Eyes, the submitter requested authenticity for 12th to 15th C Turkey and allowed any changes.
The LoI stated that "Karchar is a Turkish masculine name, which appears in the Book of Dede Korkut, which was recorded between the 12th and 15th Century" and that "'of the Blue Eyes' is the English Translation of the Arabic epithet 'al-Azmaq', which is dated to 1230." No indication was provided on the LoI of where in The Book of Dede Korkut the name Karchar is found. Additionally, no reference was provided in the LoI at all for where the information regarding the byname al-Azmaq was found. This is a case of inadequate summarization of documentation on the LoI and is cause for return. The College cannot judge information that is not provided to them, hence the requirement of proper summarization of all documentation on LoIs.
al-Jamal provided an evaluation of this name. It illustrates clearly why proper summarization is necessary for documentation referenced in LoIs:
Is there any indication of where in The Book of Dede Korkut the name Karchar appears? Or do I have to reread the entire text to see if I can find it? (My copy is the old Penguin Classic; it has no index.)
The Book of Dede Korkut (Dede means "grandfather" (Introduction, p. 12), and Korkut as a name "was in fact quite common" (Introduction, p. 13). Not entirely unlike "Mother" Goose. The best support for his having been a real person is that "certainly there is no evidence that he was not". Introduction, p. 12. On the other hand, he is said to have lived for 295 years. Ibid.) is basically a collection of folk tales. Like many folk tales, some, and even perhaps most, of the names therein may be allegorical or invented (for example, how many real people were named Rapunzel? Or Cinderella? Would their appearance in a collection of period folk tales be sufficient for us to decide to register them? In The Book of Dede Korkut, the name Kazilik occurs as a personal name, as the name of a mountain, and as the name of a breed of horse (Notes, p. 196). The boy Basat (Attack-horse) is named so because he attacks a herd of horses and sucks their blood. Notes, pp. 205-206. There is no indicatio[n] that Basat is an otherwise reasonable name for a person). Is there any indication of whether Karchar is or is not an allegorical or invented name also?
"'of the Blue Eyes' is an English Translation of the Arabic epithet 'al-Azmaq'". Really? Where? The LoI gives no indication of the source or much of anything else, simply making the bald statement and citing, without reference to its source, a date. This is inadequate documentation.
Azmak is a Turkish word meaning "go astray; become furious/mad/unmanageable; become depraved". (The Oxford Turkish-English Di[c]tionary, 1984, p. 49)
The Arabic for "blue", which has been found (at least in the feminine form, in period, in the name of Warwar al-Zarqa', cited in Dodge, the Fihrist of al-Nadim, vol. 2, p. 1131) in the sense "blue-eyed" (not "of the blue eyes") is azrak. (Jaschke's English-Arabic Conversational Dictionary, pp. 164, 312.
Since he's not really trying for "authentic '12th to 15th Century Turkey", but is opting for the lingua franca translation, I could support (assuming the documentation for the given is adequate) Karchar the Blue-eyed, but not "of the Blue Eyes".

Metron Ariston found an online copy of The Book of Dede Korkut and was able to locate the name Karchar. Looking at this name in the context of that part of The Book of Dede Korkut, there is no indication that the name Karchar is allegorical (as is the name Basat found by al-Jamal). As we have no evidence that Karchar is not being used as a true masculine given name in this context, we are giving the submitter the benefit of the doubt and registering Karchar as a given name.
The documentation provided for the byname al-Azmak was insufficient to support it as a plausible byname in period. Lacking better documentation, it is not registerable.
Additionally, no support was found that of the Blue Eyes is a reasonable Lingua Anglica translation of any Turkish or Arabic byname in period. Lacking such support, the byname of the Blue Eyes is not registerable. As noted by al-Jamal, the Blue-eyed is a reasonable Lingua Anglica rendering of the feminine descriptive byname al-Zarqa'. It is reasonable to believe that a masculine form of this byname is also plausible and that the Blue-eyed would be an appropriate Lingua Anglica translation of this masculine form as well. [Karchar the Blue-eyed, 07/2003 LoAR, A-Atlantia]

François la Flamme 2001.12 Submitted as Selim Murad, Murad was documented both as the name of a river and as a masculine given name. As neither unmarked patronymic bynames nor unmarked locative bynames have been documented in Turkish, this name is not registerable in the submitted form. We have added the particle ibn to make this a marked patronymic. The submitter requested an authentic 14th C Ottoman Turk janissary's name. As both Selim and Murad were the names of Ottoman Turkish sultans (though none of the sultans named Selim had a father named Murad), the name may be authentic for his desired time and culture. However, given the small amount of knowledge available regarding the names of janissaries, we do not know if this name is authentic for a janissary. [Selim ibn Murad, 12/01, A-Atenveldt]

François la Flamme 2001.10 It was suggested that the byname the Traveler was registerable in this instance per the Lingua Anglica allowance. However the Lingua Anglica allowance requires documentation of the descriptive byname in the original language. ...

As no documentation of a Turkish byname meaning 'the Traveler' was presented, the Lingua Anglica allowance does not apply. If such documentation had been presented, this name would be registerable in its current form under the Lingua Anglica allowance.

Given the significant contact between Turks and crusaders, combining a Turkish given name and an English byname in the same name is registerable, though it is a weirdness. [Mihrimah the Traveler, 10/01, R-Ansteorra] [Ed.: returned for two weirdnesses]

Elsbeth Anne Roth 2001.06 Mahmud itself is a Turkish form of Muhammad, unattested in an Arabic context. While registerable as a part of an Arabic name it is also a weirdness. [Al-Mufassir Ibrahim ibn Abi Cali Mahmud Al-Fatimi, 06/01, R-Ealdoremere, returned for mulitple weirdnesses]

Elsbeth Anne Roth 2000.07 This name has several problems. First, Hurrem/Roxelana, cited in the submission, was known by her original Russian name only to the West; to Turks, she was known by the Turkish harem name. Combining the two names seems to be restricted to modern history books.

Second, an epithet is not acceptable simply because a native speaker says so; modern-day people do not normally have that kind of knowledge about period naming practices. Third, Sarolta is incompatible with the rest of the name: it is only known from 10th century Hungary, and by the time of the Turkish invasion, pagan-era Hungarian female names had already disappeared. [Akilli Asian Sarolta, 07/00, R-Atenveldt]

Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 2nd year)

1995.01

Turkish does not appear to have used the Arabic bint in patronymic formations. [The name was returned.] (Atesh al- Nasmeh bint Omer, 1/95 p. 12)

Alisoun MacCoul of Elphane

1987.01.25

[Rayah Blackstar Banu] By the submittor's own documentation, rayah is a common noun referring to a non-Islamic subject of the Sultan of Turkey and no documentation has provided for its use as a given name. (LoAR 25 Jan 87, p. 26)

Laurel:	Date: (year.month.date)	Precedent:
François la Flamme	2003.12	The documentation provided for the byname of Zigana in the LoI was: The submitter provides a web site -- http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lapyrinth/2398/bginfo/geo/trebizon.html - as documentation for the locative. It states that the Zigana Pass was the route that Marco Polo traveled on his way home to Venice in 1295. While this demonstrates that the pass existed in period, it only supports Zigana as the modern name for this pass. Lacking evidence that it is a period name for this location, it is not registerable. Metron Ariston regarding the byname of Zigana: There is indeed a great deal of doubt as to whether the Turkish form of the name used here was actually used in period for either the pass or any locality nearby in which humans lived in antiquity or the medieval period. While Xenophon clearly brought his troops back from Persia by the pass (he describes it clearly), the largest city in the area was Trapezus or Trebizond, although the geographer Strabo, a contemporary of the Emperor Augustus, also mentions the city of Zigopolis which many scholars associate with the modern Zigana area (www.kultur.gov.tr). Since there is no indication that Zigana is a period name, the element Zigana is not registerable and this name must be returned. [Bathsheba of Zigana, 12/2003, R-West]
François la Flamme	2003.07	Submitted as Karchar of the Blue Eyes, the submitter requested authenticity for 12th to 15th C Turkey and allowed any changes. The LoI stated that "Karchar is a Turkish masculine name, which appears in the Book of Dede Korkut, which was recorded between the 12th and 15th Century" and that "'of the Blue Eyes' is the English Translation of the Arabic epithet 'al-Azmaq', which is dated to 1230." No indication was provided on the LoI of where in The Book of Dede Korkut the name Karchar is found. Additionally, no reference was provided in the LoI at all for where the information regarding the byname al-Azmaq was found. This is a case of inadequate summarization of documentation on the LoI and is cause for return. The College cannot judge information that is not provided to them, hence the requirement of proper summarization of all documentation on LoIs. al-Jamal provided an evaluation of this name. It illustrates clearly why proper summarization is necessary for documentation referenced in LoIs: Is there any indication of where in The Book of Dede Korkut the name Karchar appears? Or do I have to reread the entire text to see if I can find it? (My copy is the old Penguin Classic; it has no index.) The Book of Dede Korkut (Dede means "grandfather" (Introduction, p. 12), and Korkut as a name "was in fact quite common" (Introduction, p. 13). Not entirely unlike "Mother" Goose. The best support for his having been a real person is that "certainly there is no evidence that he was not". Introduction, p. 12. On the other hand, he is said to have lived for 295 years. Ibid.) is basically a collection of folk tales. Like many folk tales, some, and even perhaps most, of the names therein may be allegorical or invented (for example, how many real people were named Rapunzel? Or Cinderella? Would their appearance in a collection of period folk tales be sufficient for us to decide to register them? In The Book of Dede Korkut, the name Kazilik occurs as a personal name, as the name of a mountain, and as the name of a breed of horse (Notes, p. 196). The boy Basat (Attack-horse) is named so because he attacks a herd of horses and sucks their blood. Notes, pp. 205-206. There is no indicatio[n] that Basat is an otherwise reasonable name for a person). Is there any indication of whether Karchar is or is not an allegorical or invented name also? "'of the Blue Eyes' is an English Translation of the Arabic epithet 'al-Azmaq'". Really? Where? The LoI gives no indication of the source or much of anything else, simply making the bald statement and citing, without reference to its source, a date. This is inadequate documentation. Azmak is a Turkish word meaning "go astray; become furious/mad/unmanageable; become depraved". (The Oxford Turkish-English Di[c]tionary, 1984, p. 49) The Arabic for "blue", which has been found (at least in the feminine form, in period, in the name of Warwar al-Zarqa', cited in Dodge, the Fihrist of al-Nadim, vol. 2, p. 1131) in the sense "blue-eyed" (not "of the blue eyes") is azrak. (Jaschke's English-Arabic Conversational Dictionary, pp. 164, 312. Since he's not really trying for "authentic '12th to 15th Century Turkey", but is opting for the lingua franca translation, I could support (assuming the documentation for the given is adequate) Karchar the Blue-eyed, but not "of the Blue Eyes". Metron Ariston found an online copy of The Book of Dede Korkut and was able to locate the name Karchar. Looking at this name in the context of that part of The Book of Dede Korkut, there is no indication that the name Karchar is allegorical (as is the name Basat found by al-Jamal). As we have no evidence that Karchar is not being used as a true masculine given name in this context, we are giving the submitter the benefit of the doubt and registering Karchar as a given name. The documentation provided for the byname al-Azmak was insufficient to support it as a plausible byname in period. Lacking better documentation, it is not registerable. Additionally, no support was found that of the Blue Eyes is a reasonable Lingua Anglica translation of any Turkish or Arabic byname in period. Lacking such support, the byname of the Blue Eyes is not registerable. As noted by al-Jamal, the Blue-eyed is a reasonable Lingua Anglica rendering of the feminine descriptive byname al-Zarqa'. It is reasonable to believe that a masculine form of this byname is also plausible and that the Blue-eyed would be an appropriate Lingua Anglica translation of this masculine form as well. [Karchar the Blue-eyed, 07/2003 LoAR, A-Atlantia]
François la Flamme	2001.12	Submitted as Selim Murad, Murad was documented both as the name of a river and as a masculine given name. As neither unmarked patronymic bynames nor unmarked locative bynames have been documented in Turkish, this name is not registerable in the submitted form. We have added the particle ibn to make this a marked patronymic. The submitter requested an authentic 14th C Ottoman Turk janissary's name. As both Selim and Murad were the names of Ottoman Turkish sultans (though none of the sultans named Selim had a father named Murad), the name may be authentic for his desired time and culture. However, given the small amount of knowledge available regarding the names of janissaries, we do not know if this name is authentic for a janissary. [Selim ibn Murad, 12/01, A-Atenveldt]
François la Flamme	2001.10	It was suggested that the byname the Traveler was registerable in this instance per the Lingua Anglica allowance. However the Lingua Anglica allowance requires documentation of the descriptive byname in the original language. ... As no documentation of a Turkish byname meaning 'the Traveler' was presented, the Lingua Anglica allowance does not apply. If such documentation had been presented, this name would be registerable in its current form under the Lingua Anglica allowance. Given the significant contact between Turks and crusaders, combining a Turkish given name and an English byname in the same name is registerable, though it is a weirdness. [Mihrimah the Traveler, 10/01, R-Ansteorra] [Ed.: returned for two weirdnesses]
Elsbeth Anne Roth	2001.06	Mahmud itself is a Turkish form of Muhammad, unattested in an Arabic context. While registerable as a part of an Arabic name it is also a weirdness. [Al-Mufassir Ibrahim ibn Abi Cali Mahmud Al-Fatimi, 06/01, R-Ealdoremere, returned for mulitple weirdnesses]
Elsbeth Anne Roth	2000.07	This name has several problems. First, Hurrem/Roxelana, cited in the submission, was known by her original Russian name only to the West; to Turks, she was known by the Turkish harem name. Combining the two names seems to be restricted to modern history books. Second, an epithet is not acceptable simply because a native speaker says so; modern-day people do not normally have that kind of knowledge about period naming practices. Third, Sarolta is incompatible with the rest of the name: it is only known from 10th century Hungary, and by the time of the Turkish invasion, pagan-era Hungarian female names had already disappeared. [Akilli Asian Sarolta, 07/00, R-Atenveldt]
Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 2nd year)	1995.01	Turkish does not appear to have used the Arabic bint in patronymic formations. [The name was returned.] (Atesh al- Nasmeh bint Omer, 1/95 p. 12)
Alisoun MacCoul of Elphane	1987.01.25	[Rayah Blackstar Banu] By the submittor's own documentation, rayah is a common noun referring to a non-Islamic subject of the Sultan of Turkey and no documentation has provided for its use as a given name. (LoAR 25 Jan 87, p. 26)