PRECEDENTS OF THE S.C.A. COLLEGE OF ARMS

The 1st Tenure of Da'ud Ibn Auda (1st year)

PAWPRINT


"The badge has the problem of using two different types of the same charge (pawprints) which has been disallowed for some time (although usually we see this problem with different types of swords)." [the badge was returned for this reason alone] (LoAR 12/90 p.17).


PIERCING


[A cross pointed charged with a mullet vs. a square-pierced cross moline] There is no difference for the changes to type of 'tertiary'." (LoAR 8/90 p.15).


PILE


"The field is not really chauss�; it is not per chevron inverted, it is not a pile, it is not a chief triangular; being somewhere between all of these, we really don't know what it is. Chauss� issues from the corners of the chief and would touch the base point of the shield; per chevron inverted would issue from the sides of the field (rather than the chief corners); a pile would issue from farther in on the chief (rather [than] from the corners) and would almost touch the base point of the shield and would not have room for a charge beneath it; and a chief triangular would not descent the field nearly so far as the one here does. Please have them choose one and reemblazon it properly." [The device was returned for this problem alone] (LoAR 10/90 p.21).


[Gules, three piles in point Or, overall a centaur passant sable...] "While this is a technical violation of VIII.2.b.i. regarding the necessity of overall charges having good contrast with the field rather than the charges they overlie, the fact that the overall charge was primarily on the piles led us to [believe] that in this case such technical violation would be permissible. This is not to be taken as a general precedent for violating VIII.2.b.i." (LoAR 12/90 p.9).


"Even were a pile inverted negligibly different from per chevron throughout (and this is most frequently the case), this is clear [for other reasons]." (LoAR 12/90 p.11).


"The difference between a pile and chauss� is blazonable, but is worth nothing in terms of difference." (LoAR 12/90 p.18).


[Three piles in point and an overall charge, vs. 3 piles] "Addition of the overall charge is only one CVD." [This implies no difference between piles and piles in point] (LoAR 4/91 p.13).


POSTURE


[<field> a hawk displayed wings inverted, <tincture> vs. many cases of <different field> an eagle displayed <same tincture>] "In each case, there is only one CVD, for the field" [implying no difference for hawk to eagle, or for inverting wings] (LoAR 7/90 pps. 11-12).


[An arrow inverted vs. a stag lodged to sinister] "...Laurel is inclined to allow a CVD...for orientation (palewise vs. fesswise)." (LoAR 7/90 pps. 12-13).


"We are not at all certain that 'juggling' is an heraldic posture." [Returned for this and other reasons] (LoAR 8/90 p.17).


[A charged bend sinister cotised] "Versus [a charged bend cotised] there is a CVD for the orientation of the primary and another for the orientation of the secondaries (the cotises)." (LoAR 10/90 p.6).


[Crane blazoned in LoAR as 'standing on one foot'] "The crane was blazoned in the LoI as 'in its vigilance', but that definiton includes a stone held in the raised foot of the bird, which was not present in the emblazon." (LoAR 10/90 p.7).


[Ypotryll dormant] "Versus [a dragon with the head and wings of an eagle couchant, wings displayed and addorsed], we believe that X.2 can be applied, even with the 'meatloaf' position here, owing to the very marked changes between the monsters." (LoAR 10/90 p.9).


"We feel that the second CVD can be gained from the change from courant to passant [sic - should be statant as in blazon], as it changes dramatically the position of all the legs. (Much as a CVD is granted for the change from statant to couchant, which effectively only removes the legs.)" (LoAR 11/90 p.9).


[A fox, lying on its back with all four paws in the hair, perched on a forepaw a raven] "The fox is in a non-heraldic position, one which has been returned before in the LoARs of 14 April 1985, p.9 and 7 July 1986, p.17 and one which no one of us could blazon without resorting to, as Lord Trefoil pointed out, IPOC blazon terms. This we are extremely reluctant to do. While the submitted term 'in his deception' was very tempting, Laurel does not feel that a term which requires a special knowledge of SCA blazonry not already in current common usage in the College is a good idea." (LoAR 11/90 p.18).


[A bear sitting with its legs forward in the style of a teddy bear, blazoned as 'sitting' in the LoI and 'sejant erect' in the LoAR] "We felt that the depiction of the bear was within the limits of artistic variation for sejant erect, and did not feel that a new term ('sitting') was necessary for this posture." (LoAR 12/90 p.13).


"There is...nothing for the change to erased contourny from trian aspect to sinister, which is, after all, only a slight turn of the head." (LoAR 12/90 p.15).


"The only real difference between herissony and passant is the arch of the back and position of one paw, so [there is no CVD]." (LoAR 12/90 p.16).


[A sheaf of arrows inverted between a group of secondary charges] "Conflict with...a sheaf of three arrows...There is only one CVD, for the addition of the [secondaries]." [Implying that inverting the sheaf of arrows is worth no difference] (LoAR 2/91 p.17).


[A catamount couchant guardant, head lowered...] "The primary here is not in a heraldic posture. Nearly every commenter noted that it appeared in a very naturalistic position, crouched upon an (invisible) rock...Nor was the bordure truly fretty, but a kind of semy of lozenges [no interlace lines]. Were there only one of these problems, we would very likely have registered it and told the submitter to 'draw the X correctly'; as it is we felt that a new emblazon is in order." (LoAR 2/91 p.18).


"Though the hound was blazoned in the LoI as 'at point', there is no real difference between that and the more common 'passant'." [the blazon was corrected to 'passant'] (LoAR 4/91 p.7).


[Whale] "There is a CVD for hauriant embowed vs. hauriant." (LoAR 5/91 p.1).


"There appear to be some very strong feelings that birds should not be registered in quadrupeds' positions. As a consequence of this attitude (which Laurel has long shared): PRECEDENT: Henceforth, we will not accept rampant birds." (LoAR 5/91 p.5).


"It seems to be the consensus of the College that a fly rampant and clad in motley exceeds the informal 'Rule of two Weirdnesses' and given the College's feelings about birds in a rampant position it is unlikely that a rampant insect would be any more acceptable." (LoAR 5/91 p.11).


PRETENSE - Armory


[Two people's arms, dimidiated, submitted as a badge] "The Rules for Submissions, XI.3, state specifically that 'Armory that appears to marshall independent arms is considered presumptuous'. This submission clearly marshals independent arms. The subtext to XI.3 notes that 'Divisions commonly uesd for marshalling, such as quarterly or per pale, may only be used in contexts that ensure marshalling is not suggested.' Dimidiation is one such context. Precedents for not allowing marshalling and dimidiation go back at least as far as the LoAR of October 24, 1979, Master Wilhelm von Schlussel stated that 'This is very lovely, but it looks like dimidiation, which we do not allow.' The fact that dimidiation is not specifically mentioned in the new RfS does not mean that it is now excluded from the ban on marshalling. That the submitters may display their registered arms dimidiated (however unidentifiable each coat then becomes) is not disputed, but they may not register them this way." (LoAR 10/90 p.16).


[A quarterly field charged with two kinds of charge (as in quartered arms), and a bordure] "The appearance of marshalled arms here is overwhelming, even with the bordure as a cadency charge. The intent of the 'overall charge' requirement of XI.3.a is one of a charge lying in the center of the field, not a peripheral charge such as a chief or bordure (which were often used as cadency charges)." (LoAR 10/90 p.16).


[Azure, in bend two fleurs-de-lys Or and in bend sinister two swans naiant argent] "Though the field has but a single tincture, the appearance of marshalled arms is overwhelming. The eye tends to 'draw' the quarterly division even though each of the 'quarters' is azure." (LoAR 12/90 p.17).


PRETENSE - General


[A submission for a dog] "The College does not register names or armory which appear to claim for the submitter powers or status he or she does not have. In this case, the submitter is claiming human status. If the submitter can prove such, we will reconsider this name. Until such time, this name submission is RETURNED." (CL 2/4/91 pps. 1-2).


PRETENSE - Names


"Submitted as <given name> <locative> of <locative>, such a form (X of X, or X of that Ilk) is a claim not only to chieftanship of a clan but implies overlordship of a territory, and rank and title. Such a claim is improper in the S.C.A." (LoAR 9/90 p.7).


"<given name> the Breton should no more conflict with <same given name>, Duke of Brittany, than Richard the Englishman would with Richard, King of England." [Note this overturns a precedent of Master Baldwin's, in the case of Wladislaw Poleski] (LoAR 10/90 p.2).


"Submitted as <given name> Sinclair of Wick, we have dropped the locative to avoid the appearance of presumption that the submitter is the clan chief of the Sinclairs, Earls of Caithness, whose stronghold is Girnigoe Castle, just north of Wick in Caithness." (LoAR 10/90 p.2).


[<given name> of Orange] "While William of Orange did appear to be the most famous member of the House, given the facts that there is a town of that name in France and that no evidence was presented that the House of Orange was strictly a royal household in the manner of the Hohenstauffens, but something more along the lines of the families of York and Lancaster, we felt that this name was acceptable" (LoAR 10/90 p.4).


[Rob Roy <Surname>] "After much consideration and discussion, it was determined that 'Rob Roy' is so well known and closely associated with Rob Roy McGregor that it must be considered a unique name. 'Rob' is fine, and so is 'Roy', but 'Rob Roy' is not." (LoAR 10/90 p.17).


[<given name> ap Gryffydd ap Cynan o'r Wyddfa] "The name is a claim to descent from Gryffydd ap Cynan, king of Gwenedd of which y Wyddfa is the highest point." (LoAR 10/90 p.21).


[Clan Stewart of <place>] "There is in the name 'Stewart of <place>' an implication of title, but not of landedness (since <place> does not exist as a place). See Scots Heraldry by Sir Thomas Innes of Learney, pp. 203-205, for a fuller discussion of 'Territorial Designations'." [The clan name was registered] (LoAR 11/90 p.6).


[Samhiloldanach] "There was a question as to whether the byname is unique to the god Lugh, but given the lack of documentation for this objection, we are giving the submitter the benefit of the doubt." (LoAR 11/90 p.9).


"Given the common usage in the SCA of calling the holder of an heraldic title 'Lord X' or 'Lady X', heraldic titles taken from real-life places falls under the Prohibition of Landed Titles of Corpora (Appendix C, Administrative Rules of the College of Arms)." (LoAR 11/90 p.13).


[Guild of the Enchanted Needle] "We have serious qualms about registring 'enchanted' anythings. See RfS VI.2., Names Claiming Powers." [Guild name returned also because no given name present] (LoAR 11/90 p.16).


"The use of a clan name with an actual place in Scotland implies landedness in the possession of a feudal barony. See Scots Heraldry by Sir Thomas Innes of Learney, pp. 203-205, for a fuller discussion of 'Territorial Designations'." (LoAR 11/90 p.17).


[<given name> Killian the Red] "While the name is reminiscent of Killian's Red beer, the general feeling among the commenters was that the Law of Toyota should apply. ('You asked for it...')" (LoAR 12/90 p.2).


[Lora Leigh] "It was our feeling that the registration of Lora Leigh <surname> (from which this name is sufficiently different by the Rules) established a precedent in not calling conflict with the classical Lorelei, more so since there were no allusions to Lorelei in the armory." (LoAR 12/90 p.4).


[<name> de Montfort Lyons] "SCA practice for those with awards of arms is to style them as 'Lord/Lady {Given}' or 'Lord/Lady {Entire registered name}'. It is Laurel's opinion that such usage is not presumptuous. The form of usage...of '<given name>, Lord de Montfort' or '<given name>, Lord de Montfort Lyons' would be presumptuous; that form is not what we use in the SCA nor is it appropriate for SCA use." (CL 2/4/91 p.2).


"Submitted as <names> of the Rose, the byname implies membership in the Order of the Rose as much as 'of the Laurel', 'of the Chivalry', or 'of the Pelican' imply membership in those orders. We have dropped the byname..." (LoAR 1/91 p.10).


[Rhiannon of the Hollow Lands] "The name is simply too evocative of the Welsh Goddess Rhiannon, who rode out of the Gorsedd Arberth, a hill (resumably hollow) with supernatural properties." (LoAR 2/91 p.20).


"Although Levesque means 'bishop', which is a restricted title in the SCA, it is also a documentable period surname. It is Laurel's opinion that Levesque should be registrable under the same general restrictions as Regina; that is, so long as it is not used in such a way as to appear like a title." (LoAR 3/91 p.5).


"Submitted as Reina de <place>, that form of the name takes on the aspect of a title 'Queen of <place>.' We have deleted the article 'of' in order to remove the appearance of presumption and to register the name." (LoAR 3/91 p.5).


[<name> de Navarre] "We have historically registered ' 'name' of 'Kingdom' ' so long as the given name was not identical to that of one of the rulers of 'Kingdom'. The only exception Laurel remembers offhand to this is the name Hohenstaufen which name was only used by the ruling family." (LoAR 5/91 p.2).


[of Windsor] "As the locative is that of a place in England from which a number of people could be, and only comparatively recently adopted as a dynastic name, it is not seen as presumptuous to the ruling family of England." (LoAR 6/91 p.13).


PRETENSE - Names in conjunction with Armory


"The name Olwen may not be combined with the use of trefoils on armory." (LoAR 6/90 Symposium p.1) [Submitter's surname the same as famous mundane family, primary charge on device is same as family's crest] "The device...contains one allusion to [surname] armory (their...crest), but used in this manner does not appear excessive." (LoAR 7/90 p.2).


[Submitter's surname the same as existing SCA person's surname, submitted badge has same outline as the same SCA person's arms] "It is Laurel's feeling in this case...that the complete change to all tinctures on the device bring this clear, in spite of the similarity of outline." (LoAR 8/90 p.1). [Submitter has same surname as mundane armory owner] "While there is adequate technical difference, all of the difference comes from the addition of tertiaries; combined with the name this is problematical." [one of a number of reasons for return] (LoAR 8/90 p.19).


[Submitter's surname a spelling variant of Campbell, field of submitter's arms the same as the (field only) device of the Campbells] "Several commenters expressed some qualms about the combination of the surname Campbell (in any form) and the gyronny arms of the Campbells. Given that the only allusion to the Campbells in the arms here is the gyronny field and that this proposal has three Clear Visual Differences from the Campbell arms [addition of a primary charge and a charged chief], we felt that the allusion was not excessive." (LoAR 11/90 p.4).


[Shaul ben Yisrael of <place>] "While there was some question as to whether this name combined with already registered armory which combined the 'lion of Judah' and a six-pointed mullet might not be excessive allusion, the fact that the historical King Saul, was a Benjaminite, not a Judahite, lessens the problem considerably. We did not, in fact, feel that the allusion was excessive." (LoAR 12/90 p.9).


"Pandora appears to be a unique name, borne only by the half-human heroine of myth. Barring documentation that the name was given to people in period, we cannot register it. [re: the device] The chest was... too great an allusion to the mythical Pandora (along with the anchor, the symbol of hope, the last thing to be released from Pandora's box)." (LoAR 12/90 p.16).


"The name MacLeer ('son of Leer') should not be used in connection with sea symbology because it will appear to be a claim to descent from the sea god Lir." (LoAR 1/91 p.27).


"There was much discussion regarding the combination of the <surname> surname with a device which is clearly derivative from the <surname> arms. However, there are three and four CVDs from each of these arms, respectively... This should be sufficient, even considering the similarity of the surname." (LoAR 3/91 p.1).


PROPER


"Cloves 'proper' are hereby defined as being dark brown." (LoAR 7/90 p.1).


"There is really no 'proper' for a jester's bauble (or motley)." [Superceded on LoAR 1/91 p.13] (LoAR 9/90 p.17).


[Male American kestrels striking proper (Falco spaverius)] "The male American kestrels are mostly light buff and tan on the underside, and in this position have good contrast with the [purpure] bend sinister." (LoAR 11/90 p.4).


"There is no 'proper' for the pack on the pack-horse (the one on the emblazon was brown)." (LoAR 12/90 p.15).


"A jester's bauble proper would have a white face and brown stick, with the vesting tinctures blazoned specifically." [superceding comments on LoAR 9/90 p.17] (LoAR 1/91 p.13).


"We believe, however, that a 'musket proper' would have a brown wood stock and black metal parts." (LoAR 1/91 p.15).


[Sable, a human proper between flaunches argent each charged with an animal proper] "It was noted in the Laurel meeting that this might be considered an overuse of 'proper', since of all the visually significant charges, only the flaunches were not tinctured proper." [the device was returned primarily for administrative reasons] (LoAR 1/91 p.21).


"An enfield proper has a red fox's head and forequarters, a grey wolf's back half, and yellow hawk's talons for the forelegs." (LoAR 1/91 p.21).


[a ferret's head couped affronty proper] "There were two problems here: one is the identifiability of the 'ferret's' head as distinct from any other kind of beast's head in this position. The other is that ferrets appear to have no single defined 'proper' tincture, but can vary according to the season, etc." (LoAR 2/91 p.19).


"PRECEDENT: The College of Arms will no longer register flora and fauna in their natural 'proper' tinctures if to do so they require the Linnaean genus and species. Proper is allowed for natural flora and fauna where there is a widely understood default coloration for the charge so specified.

My rule of thumb here is that if you have to look it up in a book, it is excessive. An elephant 'proper' most everyone knows - it's basically gray, as is a natural dolphin proper. A brown bear proper or a brown horse proper, no problem. Natural tigers, trees, zebras, bald eagles, blackberry vines, and such-like may be registered as 'proper'. Loard Black Boar (Atenveldt), Phillip of Loch Shelldrake, suggests a similar rule of thumb: one adjective to describe the proper charge is fine (a Bengal tiger proper, a brown bear proper), but 'a blazon of several adjectives should be given the heraldic hairy eyeball'." (CL 5/13 p.2).


"Proper is not a tincture - it is heraldic shorthand. The badgers' heads are argent, marked sable. That's two tinctures. While vair may be listed in the glossary under tinctures, the fact that it is a neutral fur is because it consists of both a metal and a color. Its visual complexity is such that it looks like two tinctures." [a 'complexity count' was made on the above premises] (LoAR 4/91 p.15).


PROTECTED ITEMS


"Regarding the issue (brought up in the LoI) regarding the protection of the 'fictional armory of a character in a book that none of us had even heard of,' Laurel feels much as Lord Dragon put it: 'I'm perfectly content to protect his armory if it means keeping a single, simple standard of difference.' While Laurel is in sympathy with the position of the <Kingdom> College of Heralds, I would hate to start complicating things with notices like, 'We will protect all of the armory in Fabulous Heraldry (or the Military Ordinary, or Papworth's, or Woodward's or whatever) except for the following:'." (LoAR 11/90 pps. 17-18).


[<given name> the <epithet>] "Conflict with the submitter's legal name, <given name> <epithet>. Society names should not be the same as the members' legal names. (See Administrative Handbook, Protected Items I.) Addition of the article 'the' is insufficient. (See RfS, V.4.) Addition of a given, surname, adjective or adjectival phrase would clear this." (LoAR 1/91 p.23).


Table of Contents




Jump to Precedents main page
Jump to Laurel main page



maintained by Codex Herald
This page was last updated on $lastmod"; ?>

The arms of the SCA Copyright © 1995 - Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc.