Collected Precedents of the S.C.A.: Bynames

Name Precedents: Bynames

Laurel: Date: (year.month.date) Precedent:

Shauna of Carrick Point 2004.04 The byname combination "de Bruce the Fowler" is grandfathered to her; it is her husband's registered surname. [Caitrina de Bruce the Fowler, 04/04, A-Artemesia]

Shauna of Carrick Point 2004.03 The form of the byname is also problematic. In February 1998, Laurel disallowed called the X style bynames in English. Lacking evidence of this style of byname was used in English names in our period, this construction continues to be a reason for return. [Karolyne, called the Wanderer, 03/04, R-Caid]

François la Flamme 2002.01 No documentation was provided and none was found that the construction of the [family name]s was used in period. Lacking such documentation, this form is not registerable. The form Cuilén Gordon would be registerable style. However, this name (in either form) conflicts with the registered name Colin Gordon (registered June 1998). [Cuilén of the Gordons, 01/02, R-Atenveldt]

François la Flamme 2001.10 There was some discussion regarding the combination of elements in this name. David was documented as an English given name. Lorkin was documented as an English surname which was originally a patronymic byname derived from the given name Lorkin, a diminutive of Lawrence. O'Dea was documented as an Anglicized Irish surname. Use of more than one surname is registerable in both English and Anglicized Irish so long as the combination is plausible.

What is considered "plausible" has to be evaluated on a case by case basis according to the combination in question. For example, Richard the Black the Gray is documentable as a given name followed by two bynames. However, the combination of two descriptive bynames whose meanings are at odds with each other is not plausible.

The question with this submission is whether the combination of an English surname derived from a patronymic byname followed by an Anglicized Irish surname that is also derived from a patronymic byname. Generally, this combination does not seem plausible, as they seem to be at odds with each other.

Happily, the element Lorkin in this name can be viewed as a second given name since Lorkin was a diminutive of Lawrence. Therefore, this name is registerable. [David Lorkin O'Dea, 10/01, A-Meridies]

François la Flamme 2001.09 Submitted as Áengus Ó Dubhghaill Grey Wolf, this name had several problems.

The greatest problem was regarding the construction of Ó Dubhghaill Grey Wolf. No documentation was provided that this was a reasonable construction. Ó Dubhghaill Grey Wolf may seem to be two name phrases, Ó Dubhghaill and Grey Wolf, but it is actually a compound byname. Irish Gaelic uses the structure Ó byname + another byname to refer to a particular family, usually as part of a chiefly title. For example, the names Ó Conchobhair Donn, Ó Conchobhair Ruadh, and Ó Conchobhair Sligeach are all designations for heads of branches of the O'Connors (Woulfe, p. 477 s.n. Ó Conchobhair Donn).

As a compound byname, Ó Dubhghaill Grey Wolf falls under RfS III.1.a and must consist of a single language. As submitted, this name phrase mixes Irish Gaelic and English. As we have no evidence that 'color + animal' is a reasonable byname in Irish Gaelic, we cannot translate Grey Wolf into Gaelic. The simplest fix is to put Grey Wolf before the patronymic, making it a descriptive byname referring to Áengus. [Áengus Greywolf Ó Dubhghaill, 09/01, A-Caid]

Elsbeth Anne Roth 1999.11 [Kér Béla] There is no evidence, and none could be found, that tribal names, such as Ker, were used in Hungarian names. [Kér Béla, 11/99, R-Outlands]

Jaelle of Armida 1998.11 [Isabel Kelsey de Cameron] Submitted as ... of Clan Cameron, The available evidence indicates that the way membership in such a clan (no matter what "clan" word was used for the group) was indicated in a personal name was by the use of ó (or older ua) plus the clan eponym in the genitive, not by using a construction equivalent to 'of Clan X'. We have removed the word clan, and changed the name to the closest registerable form to the originally submitted form. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1998, p. 1)

Jaelle of Armida 1998.09 [Fionnbharr Seabhac] Found on the LoI as Fionbharr an Seabhac, the given name was typoed on LOI; the proper spelling of the given name has two n's. We have corrected this. Additionally we have removed the article an in the byname, as it is rarely used in Gaelic. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR September 1998)

Jaelle of Armida 1998.08 [Astridr in kyrra] Submitted as Astridr inn kyrri, the given name is feminine and the byname is in the masculine form. Since the byname must agree with the given name in gender we have corrected it. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR August 1998)

Jaelle of Armida 1998.08 [Fearghus Slànaighear] Submitted as Fearghus an Slànaigher, use of the definite article is extremely rare in Gaelic names. Therefore, barring documentation of its use with Slànaigher we have dropped it. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR September 1998, p. 1)

Jaelle of Armida 1998.08 [István Nyiregyhazi] Submitted as István Nyíregyhazi, while the LoI stated that the byname could be found in Kalman's The World of Hungarian Names, it could not be found in that spelling. We have substituted the closest documentable form, which is the same as the submitted form, but without an accent over the i. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR August 1998)

Jaelle of Armida 1998.08 [Ludwig Grün] Submitted as Ludwig der Grün, based on the submitted documentation the der does not belong in the name. Therefore, we have removed it. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR August 1998)

Jaelle of Armida 1998.08 [William Cormac Britt] Submitted as William Cormac O'Britt, no documentation was presented and none could be found for adding O' to Britt. Therefore we have dropped it. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR August 1998)

Jaelle of Armida 1998.08 The question was raised as to which is the appropriate form for Hungarian names, with the submission for István Nyiregyhazi. Should the given name go first or the byname first. Hungarian names may be registered with either the given name or byname as the first element, except when the byname is an unmarked patronym or metronym. In that case, the byname should follow the given name; this is consistent with Hungarian practice through the mid 16th century. (Jaelle of Armida, CL with the August 1998 LoAR, p. 2)

Jaelle of Armida 1998.07 [Valamer Schwarzem Fuchs] Submitted as Valamer zum schwarz Fuchs, the preposition "zu" takes the dative case for the noun and any adjectives in its propositional phrase. Additionally, the adjective, definite article, and preposition are concatenated together, to schwarzem. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, July 1998)

Jaelle of Armida 1998.06 [Drusilla of the Drunken Archers] The submitter's legal sibling, Simon de la Palma de Mallorca had the household name Drunken Archers registered to him 8/89. Therefore, the usage is grandfathered to her. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, June 1998)

Jaelle of Armida 1998.06 [Muireann Chianach] Submitted as Muireann Cianacht, the byname was not properly put into the genitive. We have corrected this. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, June 1998)

Jaelle of Armida 1997.11 According to the letter of intent, Rosensoldat means Soldier of the Rose, in German. However, no documentation was presented, and none could be found for bynames formed in this fashion. Barring such documentation the name will have to be returned. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1997, p. 12)

Jaelle of Armida 1997.07 [Connor Michael Maoll Donas] There are several problems with this name.[...] We have not seen any evidence that would lead us to think that a construction such as Mac Donas or Maoll Donas would have been used as a byname in period. The Maoll X names are confined to use with given names (presumably of saints) or words for other positive religious figures (e.g., God). And while there is a subset of given names formed from Mac+<abstract concept> the construction of these is not well enough understood to project hypothetical additions. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR July 1997, p. 16)

Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 2nd year) 1994.09 [deleting the byname Thin Oak] Thynchere (thin cheer (face)") and Thynnewyt ("thin wit") offer only very weak support for Thinoak (let alone Thin Oak). Both describe directly some feature of the person in question. Jönsjö has no nicknames containing the word oak, and the examples of Oak at (Reaney & Wilson, 327) are all locative. (John Edward, 9/94 p. 6)

Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 2nd year) 1994.09 Submitted as [N] de La Tour-du-Pin, the hyphens in the placename are modern. [The name was registered without the hyphens.] (Perronnelle Charrette de La Tour du Pin, 9/94 p. 4)

Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 1st year) 1994.05 [Returning Eduardo Negro y Albo.] We need some documentation for the form of the byname; none of the commenters cited any examples of "[surname] y [surname]" to period. It is especially needed here, where the byname literally means "black and white". [5/94, p.19]

Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 1st year) 1994.02 [Coley Cuthbert] The prepositional byname placed before the given here is fine ... . [2/94, p.12]

Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 1st year) 1993.12a No documentation was provided for the use of double surnames in French, particularly when such a combination results in the appearance of a single byname such as "the Black Gutter". [12a/93, p.16]

Da'ud ibn Auda (1st year of 1st tenure) 1991.05 [<name> de Navarre] "We have historically registered ' 'name' of 'Kingdom' ' so long as the given name was not identical to that of one of the rulers of 'Kingdom'. The only exception Laurel remembers offhand to this is the name Hohenstaufen which name was only used by the ruling family." (LoAR 5/91 p.2).

Laurel:	Date: (year.month.date)	Precedent:
Shauna of Carrick Point	2004.04	The byname combination "de Bruce the Fowler" is grandfathered to her; it is her husband's registered surname. [Caitrina de Bruce the Fowler, 04/04, A-Artemesia]
Shauna of Carrick Point	2004.03	The form of the byname is also problematic. In February 1998, Laurel disallowed called the X style bynames in English. Lacking evidence of this style of byname was used in English names in our period, this construction continues to be a reason for return. [Karolyne, called the Wanderer, 03/04, R-Caid]
François la Flamme	2002.01	No documentation was provided and none was found that the construction of the [family name]s was used in period. Lacking such documentation, this form is not registerable. The form Cuilén Gordon would be registerable style. However, this name (in either form) conflicts with the registered name Colin Gordon (registered June 1998). [Cuilén of the Gordons, 01/02, R-Atenveldt]
François la Flamme	2001.10	There was some discussion regarding the combination of elements in this name. David was documented as an English given name. Lorkin was documented as an English surname which was originally a patronymic byname derived from the given name Lorkin, a diminutive of Lawrence. O'Dea was documented as an Anglicized Irish surname. Use of more than one surname is registerable in both English and Anglicized Irish so long as the combination is plausible. What is considered "plausible" has to be evaluated on a case by case basis according to the combination in question. For example, Richard the Black the Gray is documentable as a given name followed by two bynames. However, the combination of two descriptive bynames whose meanings are at odds with each other is not plausible. The question with this submission is whether the combination of an English surname derived from a patronymic byname followed by an Anglicized Irish surname that is also derived from a patronymic byname. Generally, this combination does not seem plausible, as they seem to be at odds with each other. Happily, the element Lorkin in this name can be viewed as a second given name since Lorkin was a diminutive of Lawrence. Therefore, this name is registerable. [David Lorkin O'Dea, 10/01, A-Meridies]
François la Flamme	2001.09	Submitted as Áengus Ó Dubhghaill Grey Wolf, this name had several problems. The greatest problem was regarding the construction of Ó Dubhghaill Grey Wolf. No documentation was provided that this was a reasonable construction. Ó Dubhghaill Grey Wolf may seem to be two name phrases, Ó Dubhghaill and Grey Wolf, but it is actually a compound byname. Irish Gaelic uses the structure Ó byname + another byname to refer to a particular family, usually as part of a chiefly title. For example, the names Ó Conchobhair Donn, Ó Conchobhair Ruadh, and Ó Conchobhair Sligeach are all designations for heads of branches of the O'Connors (Woulfe, p. 477 s.n. Ó Conchobhair Donn). As a compound byname, Ó Dubhghaill Grey Wolf falls under RfS III.1.a and must consist of a single language. As submitted, this name phrase mixes Irish Gaelic and English. As we have no evidence that 'color + animal' is a reasonable byname in Irish Gaelic, we cannot translate Grey Wolf into Gaelic. The simplest fix is to put Grey Wolf before the patronymic, making it a descriptive byname referring to Áengus. [Áengus Greywolf Ó Dubhghaill, 09/01, A-Caid]
Elsbeth Anne Roth	1999.11	[Kér Béla] There is no evidence, and none could be found, that tribal names, such as Ker, were used in Hungarian names. [Kér Béla, 11/99, R-Outlands]
Jaelle of Armida	1998.11	[Isabel Kelsey de Cameron] Submitted as ... of Clan Cameron, The available evidence indicates that the way membership in such a clan (no matter what "clan" word was used for the group) was indicated in a personal name was by the use of ó (or older ua) plus the clan eponym in the genitive, not by using a construction equivalent to 'of Clan X'. We have removed the word clan, and changed the name to the closest registerable form to the originally submitted form. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1998, p. 1)
Jaelle of Armida	1998.09	[Fionnbharr Seabhac] Found on the LoI as Fionbharr an Seabhac, the given name was typoed on LOI; the proper spelling of the given name has two n's. We have corrected this. Additionally we have removed the article an in the byname, as it is rarely used in Gaelic. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR September 1998)
Jaelle of Armida	1998.08	[Astridr in kyrra] Submitted as Astridr inn kyrri, the given name is feminine and the byname is in the masculine form. Since the byname must agree with the given name in gender we have corrected it. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR August 1998)
Jaelle of Armida	1998.08	[Fearghus Slànaighear] Submitted as Fearghus an Slànaigher, use of the definite article is extremely rare in Gaelic names. Therefore, barring documentation of its use with Slànaigher we have dropped it. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR September 1998, p. 1)
Jaelle of Armida	1998.08	[István Nyiregyhazi] Submitted as István Nyíregyhazi, while the LoI stated that the byname could be found in Kalman's The World of Hungarian Names, it could not be found in that spelling. We have substituted the closest documentable form, which is the same as the submitted form, but without an accent over the i. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR August 1998)
Jaelle of Armida	1998.08	[Ludwig Grün] Submitted as Ludwig der Grün, based on the submitted documentation the der does not belong in the name. Therefore, we have removed it. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR August 1998)
Jaelle of Armida	1998.08	[William Cormac Britt] Submitted as William Cormac O'Britt, no documentation was presented and none could be found for adding O' to Britt. Therefore we have dropped it. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR August 1998)
Jaelle of Armida	1998.08	The question was raised as to which is the appropriate form for Hungarian names, with the submission for István Nyiregyhazi. Should the given name go first or the byname first. Hungarian names may be registered with either the given name or byname as the first element, except when the byname is an unmarked patronym or metronym. In that case, the byname should follow the given name; this is consistent with Hungarian practice through the mid 16th century. (Jaelle of Armida, CL with the August 1998 LoAR, p. 2)
Jaelle of Armida	1998.07	[Valamer Schwarzem Fuchs] Submitted as Valamer zum schwarz Fuchs, the preposition "zu" takes the dative case for the noun and any adjectives in its propositional phrase. Additionally, the adjective, definite article, and preposition are concatenated together, to schwarzem. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, July 1998)
Jaelle of Armida	1998.06	[Drusilla of the Drunken Archers] The submitter's legal sibling, Simon de la Palma de Mallorca had the household name Drunken Archers registered to him 8/89. Therefore, the usage is grandfathered to her. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, June 1998)
Jaelle of Armida	1998.06	[Muireann Chianach] Submitted as Muireann Cianacht, the byname was not properly put into the genitive. We have corrected this. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR, June 1998)
Jaelle of Armida	1997.11	According to the letter of intent, Rosensoldat means Soldier of the Rose, in German. However, no documentation was presented, and none could be found for bynames formed in this fashion. Barring such documentation the name will have to be returned. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR November 1997, p. 12)
Jaelle of Armida	1997.07	[Connor Michael Maoll Donas] There are several problems with this name.[...] We have not seen any evidence that would lead us to think that a construction such as Mac Donas or Maoll Donas would have been used as a byname in period. The Maoll X names are confined to use with given names (presumably of saints) or words for other positive religious figures (e.g., God). And while there is a subset of given names formed from Mac+<abstract concept> the construction of these is not well enough understood to project hypothetical additions. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR July 1997, p. 16)
Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 2nd year)	1994.09	[deleting the byname Thin Oak] Thynchere (thin cheer (face)") and Thynnewyt ("thin wit") offer only very weak support for Thinoak (let alone Thin Oak). Both describe directly some feature of the person in question. Jönsjö has no nicknames containing the word oak, and the examples of Oak at (Reaney & Wilson, 327) are all locative. (John Edward, 9/94 p. 6)
Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 2nd year)	1994.09	Submitted as [N] de La Tour-du-Pin, the hyphens in the placename are modern. [The name was registered without the hyphens.] (Perronnelle Charrette de La Tour du Pin, 9/94 p. 4)
Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 1st year)	1994.05	[Returning Eduardo Negro y Albo.] We need some documentation for the form of the byname; none of the commenters cited any examples of "[surname] y [surname]" to period. It is especially needed here, where the byname literally means "black and white". [5/94, p.19]
Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 1st year)	1994.02	[Coley Cuthbert] The prepositional byname placed before the given here is fine ... . [2/94, p.12]
Da'ud ibn Auda (2nd tenure, 1st year)	1993.12a	No documentation was provided for the use of double surnames in French, particularly when such a combination results in the appearance of a single byname such as "the Black Gutter". [12a/93, p.16]
Da'ud ibn Auda (1st year of 1st tenure)	1991.05	[<name> de Navarre] "We have historically registered ' 'name' of 'Kingdom' ' so long as the given name was not identical to that of one of the rulers of 'Kingdom'. The only exception Laurel remembers offhand to this is the name Hohenstaufen which name was only used by the ruling family." (LoAR 5/91 p.2).